AIBU to think 'middle Britain' VAT/Tax dodgers ARE a big problem

[rottentomatoes]

as well as big companies legally avoiding tax and fraudulent benefit claimants. That they are not mutually exclusive and headlines/artcles like this one (link) support middle Britain evading tax on the premise that there are bigger fish to fry.

www.express.co.uk/posts/view/372368/New-tax-raid-on-middle-Britain

AIBU to think it's actually hypocritical that many people dodge VAT/TAX etc but will happily wave around phrases like benefit scrounger or get incensed by large corporations legally avoiding tax.



Disclaimer: I don't read the Daily Express but saw this headline grabber whilst in the newsagent!

[TalkinPeace2]

rotten
You are correct, the USA is clamping down REALLY REALLY hard on offshore tax havens and has NEVER allowed "non domicile status" like the UK.

allgoing
sorry but incorrect. If you read the accounts of vodafone (and the discussions in the accountancy press) they had provided £4bn in their accounts for the penalty and could not quite believe their luck that schmoozing Hartnett had paid off so well.
And HMRC have ensures that is successor is NEVER in a position to do such deals again.

[PessaryPam]

No-one has ever said it's OK for anyone to evade paying tax love.

[PessaryPam]

Are you Dave Spart?

[TalkinPeace2]

No, I'm a libertarian who believes that the tax codes of most of the developed world need to be MASSIVELY streamlined and simplified.
This would take much expenditure outside the remit of Government and encourage self reliance.

[Scrazy]

If a tradesman is avoiding VAT they are also avoiding Tax. Taking the cash and spending it often on luxuries that are non traceable in an enquiry.

Low earners don't have a chance to avoid tax as every penny they earn is taxed under the PAYE system.

Ime, it is the same people who are welcoming Tory policies.

[flatpackhamster]

rottentomatoes

I do have a small business but for obvious reason will not divulge the details on here. I am self employed and have been for quite some time.

The thing is if the business doesn't work without getting paid cash in hand to evade tax, it doesn't work. It's not a perk of the self employed to pay less tax is it?

I've been self employed for over a decade. From the 8 years of 2001 to 2009, my taxes were increased nine times. Every time I started to earn a bit more, Gordon Effing Brown decided I was clearly doing too well for myself and took a bit more. Corporation tax went up, then Employers NI, then he change the rules so self-employed get to pay NI twice (once as an employer, and once as an employee), then another Corp Tax rise, then an income tax rise, then ANOTHER corp tax rise, then removal of the 10p tax rate, etc etc.

Financially, I'm worse off than I was ten years ago even though I'm working longer hours.

Does that make my business a failure, or Gordon Brown a shitbag of the highest order?

I don't dodge anything but it's got to the stage where I wouldn't even consider shopping a tax evader, because as far as I'm concerned, the unwritten contract between the government and me was broken again and again - by them.

[Orwellian]

Rottentomatoes. Yes, this is exactly what I am saying. Middle Britain pays a huge amount of the tax take precisely because they are in the middle (i.e. not rich enough to avoid tax altogether and not poor enough to not have to pay any tax). If middle Britain stops working and paying tax, then yes, a big chunk of the tax take will disappear and the government will have to stop letting Vodaphone avoid paying any tax unless they want riots in the street.

[rottentomatoes]

Scrazy

Yes I agree totally.

Pessary

Whilst you continue to antagonise using the word 'love' and offer nothing interesting I will ignore you.

[flatpackhamster]

Scrazy

If a tradesman is avoiding VAT they are also avoiding Tax. Taking the cash and spending it often on luxuries that are non traceable in an enquiry.

No, they are evading tax. There is a legal difference between avoidance and evasion.

Low earners don't have a chance to avoid tax as every penny they earn is taxed under the PAYE system.

Businessmen can be low earners too.

Ime, it is the same people who are welcoming Tory policies.

That's probably because the Tory party are the only ones who won't actually piss in the faces of the small business owner. Labour treated us like scum. See my post above. The Tories aren't much better - they're really only interested in big business - but at least they don't actively hate small business.

[Scrazy]

Flatpack, yes I know the difference, posted very quickly.

[rottentomatoes]

Flatpackhamster


Whilst I agree with your sentiment and yes Gordon Brown made it stupidly difficult the reason for my post is more on the line that this 'holier than thou' attitude from middle Britain goes back way before Gordon Browns changes.. It goes back decades as far as I can remember, The attitude that it's ok for me to evade but whilst I am doing it I will benefit bash and slag off the rich tax evaders. Hypocritical!

[rottentomatoes]

Orwellian

But you could say the same about any group in society, if one group stopped paying tax the it would be a nightmare. Around 80% of ALL revenue actually comes from the top 10% so if that group stopped paying tax it would hit hardest. However, this has nothing to do with my OP. I am just saying that no group should take out or not pay in what they should but it only seems socially acceptable in Middle Britain. And in the same breath slating others seemingly oblivious to what they are doing.

[CloudsAndTrees]

I think you may be mistaken about the 'holier than thou' attitude of middle Britain. At the very least, is a massive sweeping generalisation.

I'd consider myself to be somewhere in 'Middle Britain'. I haven't got a problem at all with people who are willing to pay tradesmen cash in hand for certain things, because I think it's wrong that we have to pay tax to have things like plumbing, heating and cooking facilities repaired in the first place. These things are essential, not something the government should use to make money out of people that need them. They don't charge VAT on non luxury food, so why do they charge it to have other things that aren't luxuries?

I have a problem with some people who claim benefits, and with some methods of tax avoidance from the rich or big companies. But that has nothing to do with my views on the fact that we are taxed on essentials, so I don't think I should be called hypocritical. The two opinions are not related.

[rottentomatoes]

CloudAndTrees
"I haven't got a problem at all with people who are willing to pay tradesmen cash in hand for certain things, because I think it's wrong that we have to pay tax to have things like plumbing, heating and cooking facilities repaired in the first place."

So you are justifying people doing something illegal that effects the revenue because of your beliefs. We live in a collective society, for it to work we have to elect people and go with the laws of the land. Everyone in the country has a different view on where the money should come from and can you imagine if everyone paid in what they thought they should.

Out of interest should a billionaire pay VAT for his/her cooker and fridge or is it just people earning under a certain amount that shouldn't? Who do you deem to be rich because it will probably be very different for many people.

[CloudsAndTrees]

I'm not justifying doing something illegal at all, like you say, we all have to live by the law of the land and I completely agree that's the way it should be. But I am allowed to disagree with certain laws at the same time. And all I'm saying here is that I don't think people should have to pay tax on maintaining basic essentials, like heating, flushing toilets, running water.

Should a billionaire have to pay VAT on those things, well, that depends. It would get very complicated if the idea of not charging VAT on essentials was ever looked into, but in a nutshell, I don't think a billionaire should have to pay more for something others get for free, because they already pay more tax to contribute their share. The complications would come when a billionaire lives in a mansion and and need plumbing repairs to six toilets instead of one. Six toilets in a house is a luxury, one isn't, so a line would obviously have to be drawn somewhere.

I stand by my basic principle that essentials shouldn't be taxed.

[rottentomatoes]

clouds

There is a difference between saying you don't think something should be taxed and saying but people should not do anything illegal and in your first post you said you don't have a problem with people evading tax.

[ClippedPhoenix]

Good for them i say.

[rottentomatoes]

Proving my point ClippedPhoenix.

2 billion lost to the revenue and you say good for them? How fair is that on low wage earners paying their PAYE tax on low wages?

[flatpackhamster]

£2Bn? That'll run the NHS for just 72 hours.

In terms of closing the £140Bn gap between the £688Bn spending for 2011/12 and the £550Bn tax take, £2Bn is the equivalent of rummaging down the back of the sofa for spare coppers.

[rottentomatoes]

or pay the salary for an extra 67 thousand nurses every year.

[flatpackhamster]

Yeah, I remember an awful lot of 'nurses and teachers, schools and hospitals' rhetoric from Labour when they were chucking the country's money out the window. What about the deficit?

The NHS employs 1.3 million people. I don't think its problem is staffing.

[KatyTheCleaningLady]

I go to great lengths to make it clear that we're totally above board. I encourage customers to pay by direct bank transfer. Sure, I take cash payments, but I record all of it and keep my accounts.

I'm not generating enough revenue to pay VAT, though. I see a lot of cleaning companies charging peanuts to send employees out to clean and I know there's no way they're paying all their taxes. I've done the maths: you can't make a decent profit on £12.00 an hour after paying for labour and overhead. The only way to do that would be to have a huge volume of revenue and there's no room in £12 for labour, overhead, and VAT.

[rottentomatoes]

Katy

That's the other issue no-one has commented on that I posted about earlier. The knock on effect of those who are cheating the system having unfair advantage over those who are legally paying.

[TalkinPeace2]

rotten
even worse are the legit employers getting their staff for free
like Argos, Tesco and the rest
its called Workfare
and the Government has forced it upon the low paid to put small businesses out of business
www.boycottworkfare.org