to be concerned by how much support Nigel Farage

[FreudiansSlipper]

Seems to be getting on Question Time

It's worrying how much support UKIP are getting

[Mrcrumpswife]

sukysue I don't know what they stand for, are you seriously saying that disabled children will be at risk? No one in their right mind would vote for a party who would hurt these children

Thats the most ironic thing i have read on Mumsnet in ages. Have you googled Operation Fernbridge. I'd be more worried about the shower of shit that are voted in now than UKIP.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-launch-criminal-investigation-into-mps-child-sex-ring-8456434.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2265371/Names-politicians-royal-aides-famous-pop-star-list-seized-police-investigating-child-paedophile-ring-suburban-B-amp-B-guest-house.html

[tuonela]

Would be interested to hear any kind of response from ComposHat or GothAnneGeddes regarding my previously posed questions...

ComposHat, are you prepared to tolerate any view other than your own? It seems not, and any dissenters are curtly told get off the forum. That's right, we're all unthinking, ill-informed, spiteful and simply too thick to grasp the benefits of unfettered immigration. Could you please explain why you believe an open-door immigration policy should not be questioned?

GothAnneGeddes, I understand you can not bear the thought of anything other than the complete destruction of those who wish to maintain an identity with a British culture. Does your genocidal fervor also extend to other cultures ? for instance, would you like to see Italian or Japanese culture subsumed and destroyed, or is it just the British way of life you hate?

[PessaryPam]

austenozzy Fri 18-Jan-13 23:41:36 farage went to my school. so did lord haw-haw. probably all you need to know!

But what does this say about you austenozzy?

[PessaryPam]

I am confused about the euthanising (sp?) of the over 80s that manicbmc mentions. I looked at the 2012 manifesto (www.ukip.org/media/pdf/UKIPlocalManifesto2012.pdf) and it said this:-


To keep the health service safe and protect our
elderly and disabled people
We will
Ÿ Let the people elect county boards to oversee vital
services.
Ÿ Halt all cuts in front-line NHS doctors, surgeons,
dentists and nurses?.
Ÿ Axe failing, surplus NHS management.
Ÿ Reintroduce proper matrons to run clean hospitals.
Ÿ Return nurses training back to hospitals rather than
University class rooms.
Ÿ Make specialist care available as needed, to save
lives now lost through delay.
Ÿ Cut waiting lists to European levels - Poland treats
cancer patients faster than we do.
To pay for these commitments
We will
Ÿ Restrict free health care only to UK Citizens.
Ÿ Require all visitors to exhibit adequate health
insurance at the port of entry.
Introduce lifelong private insurance against the
costs of long-term care.

Perhaps manicbmc could post links to her allegations?

[tuonela]

ComposHat, are you prepared to tolerate any view other than your own? It seems not, and any dissenters are curtly told get off the forum. That's right, we're all unthinking, ill-informed, spiteful and simply too thick to grasp the benefits of unfettered immigration. Could you please explain why you believe an open-door immigration policy should not be questioned?


GothAnneGeddes, I understand you can not bear the thought of anything other than the complete destruction of those who wish to maintain an identity with a British culture. Does your genocidal fervor also extend to other cultures ? for instance, would you like to see Italian or Japanese culture subsumed and destroyed, or is it just the British way of life you hate?

[colleysmill]

I think there have been some very salient points raised around inclusion on this thread. I have seen inclusion work brilliantly and fail miserably for different people. I think things only work when decisions are made jointly with the person (and their specific needs) at the centre of them. The problem I guess is that most political policies are generalised and so they will never work for everyone.

I worked with a service for adults with LD for some years and I recall reading a paper (which sadly i have mislaid since) about a brief history of LD. Institutions (or what became the asylums) originally were set up to protect people with additional needs from the persecution from the rest of society, to keep them safe and nuture them. It was only later the emphasis changed to protection of mainstream society from "the inmates". Likewise parents in the very very early days (i think BC) were considered special if their child was born with a disability as they were thought to have been identified and blessed by the fairies or the Gods.

Anyway I digress from the OP. Farage, I find, is an eloquent speaker. He has, what my granny would say, the gift of the gab. I think UKIP appeal in a way the Libdems did in the last election, lots of sound bites which appeal to people who find the main 2 parties don't speak for them anymore. Whether there is substance to their policies is another matter entirely.

[wouldulikeit]

I agree Carla. I watched question time and agreed with Nigel Farage regarding immigration - would I vote for Ukip? No. But does this make me racist for agreeing with him? and more importantly where does this leave me? I have no faith in this government or Labour or believe any of them are truly listening or representing me.

How would this country operate if we weren't part of the EU? Who the hell really knows but I do know that I'd like the opportunity to have my say and a vote.

[carlajean]

referring to the original point, the main reason why UKIP is popular,and Nigel Farage did well on QT, is their stance on immigration. Whether you agree with them or not, all the other parties are effectively ignoring the problem, as are all the posters on here who come on condemning people who are concerned as racist (and closing down the subject). So - if the major parties were prepared to listen to the electorate,and acknowledge their opinions, UKIP would lose alot of popularity, end of problem.

[hazeyjane]

Thankyou Moondog.

I agree about the transparency. When we found out ds had disabilities, we sat around a table at a TAC meeting, overwhelmed that all these professionals were there to support ds. And then as time went on we discovered that actually being part of the sn nursery we attend,prevented us from accessing help we needed (different districts), and that the sn preschool were completely inflexible regarding ds (and his chronic separation anxiety), meaning we had spent a year and a half trying to build a relationship between ds and his keyworker only to realise he would have to go to a different preschool, and I am still waiting for a meeting with the SALT who recommended a gastrostomy tube for ds, following a videofluoroscopy a year ago - because she is from a different district to ds's SALT......etc etc.

As you say it is like trying to wade through porridge, or something slightly less wholesome...

I have been going on the sn boards since realising ds had problems at about 7 months old. I have had more advice and support there than anywhere

[elizaregina]

AND moondog -

going off topic of the thread here - there is something to be said for people with LD being placed alone - in poor housing - being very vulnerable. They are sadly not only vulnerable to those around them - but also thier own " support workers".

I know there is some success - but the current system is very far from perfect and you dont need to scratch to far below the surface to discover its a chaotic free for all out there....

[lljkk]

Sometimes I would love to see UKIP in power. Lots of homeless legal residents and their children on the streets and suffering for lack of medical care. An extra tier of elected government sort of running parallel with many other tiers of local government and extra messy lines of responsibility for everything. Lots of gridlock on the roads, NIMBYism left to run riot, employers grumbling louder than ever that they can't find any British people willing to do menial low paid jobs. Hospital carparks overflowing with random cars left there since parking would now be free. NHS grinding to a halt due to low staffing levels, as it can't afford the private medical insurance bill for a third of its staff and as foreigners they wouldn't be eligible for care on the NHS, either.

[moondog]

I do apologise Hazey. I misunderstood the tone and purpose of your post.
I agree with all that you say and know how complex and exhausting the whole process is. Like wading through waist high cold porridge.

Choice is paramount at every stage and transparency about what each placement can offer. At present I do think that transparency is not there and as a result, in schools for example, mainstream schools are valiantly attempting to educate children with very complex needs who are falling further nad further behind. They are too scared to voice their complete lack of ability to help the child for fear of being seen as discriminatory so all stay silent.

Looks great on paper but in fact, itmeans precious time has been wasted during a window when the child could really have been helped.

Do you post on the SN board? Yor name is not familiar to me but if not, please hurry over and join us.

[PolkadotCircus]

Ukip seem to be the only lot left that actually care about those of us stuck in the middle,there is no other party that has anything for the squeezed middle as far as I'm concerned.

An awful lot of ignorant hysteria over Ukip.

I've gone from labour
(wasted a stack load of money and Miliband is too weak to libdem(will never,ever vote for them again after their lies),considered Tory but after their blatant unfairness over CB which they still refuse to acknowledge,consistent looking after of their own ie the rich and the grey vote,consistent ill thought out policies,consistent shafting of the middle they can take a running jump too.


Sooooo that leaves Ukip who have some really good stuff in their a manifesto if anybody cares to actually look.They'd get rid off tuition fees,wind farms(which are pretty crap and we're all paying for in our hiked up bills),the Europe question....

Anybody like to make another possible suggestion for those of us in the middle?No I thought not,there isn't anybody!!!

[hazeyjane]

Hazy whatever your right on sensibilities would lead you to believe

Moondog, I put those quotes in, because someone had questioned the idea that ukip were aiming to put an end to inclusion in schools, and bring back ideas that a lot of people believe would lead to the segregation of people with disabilities.

Yes I am aware that there have been a lot of failings in the way inclusion has been implemented in mainstream, and for some children and in some schools it does not work. But surely there are many different children with many different disabilities, and where special school may be the best option for some, in other cases a mainstream setting with the right support, would be the best option.

The same goes for adult 'communities'. I just think these sort of policies appeal to the idea that a lot of people have of children and adults with disabilities as being 'other' to the rest of society. That doesn't mean I don't think special schools and adult communities aren't positive things that are the best choice for some, but in lots of cases inclusion can work.

I know you are very experienced in this field, and my own experience is limited to the experience of trying to navigate my way through the world of special needs provision. My son is only 2.6, so I have dipped less than my little toe in, and yet I have already filled out endless forms, had many meetings with lots of professionals, spent hours on the phone trying to work out who is supposed to provide what for my child. We are in the middle of the statementing process now, I have just filled out an 18 page form, and am trying to arrange a meeting between 12 people to discuss what support there will be for my son, and that is just for preschool! Thoughts of the future terrify me, at the moment I think special school will be the best option for primary, but we also have a local primary with very good sen provision - I am glad we have that choice. As for further down the line, well I can't look that far ahead, but I hope we have options that will suit ds.

It is very easy to me write off as having 'right on sensibilities', and maybe I do, but I also have very real fears for the future, so it hurts when you write about those fears in such a blithe way. I know I need to grow a thicker skin.

[ComposHat]

I don't know what they stand for, are you seriously saying that disabled children will be at risk? No one in their right mind would vote for a party who would hurt these children

Jesus wept.

I feel like I need to take a crash course in it to be able to vote in the next election

Yes you do.

It isn't hard, we can access vast swathes of information from anywhere in the world in seconds! This would have blown people's minds even 20 years ago. It is like standing on top of a pile of gold nuggets and saying 'I'm poor'

There are TV channels devoted to parliament, the proceedings are covered on the radio every night, there are newspapers and mangazines that cover politics from a variety of standpoints. There is absolutely no excuse for being ill-informed on what a political party stands for before advocating support for them or casting a vote.

[austenozzy]

farage went to my school. so did lord haw-haw. probably all you need to know!

[sukysue]

I can see why you are worrying Manicbmc, I am too. There doesn't seem to be anything we can do does there ? It's all so frustrating and hopeless. I am going to do something about it though, even if it's just to get my kids a bloody scales.
I must go now I need more education on all this. Goodnight everyone.

[manicbmc]

My ds is not included within the community (for everyone's safety and his) - though he does have limited contact in a very controlled way.

What UKIP want is the return to institutions where people are medicated to be least trouble. Under UKIP, due to stomach problems that lead to him being sick in the night, my ds would probably be so drugged up that he would choke on his own vomit. But I don't think they'd care. Keep all these troublesome disabled people together - they won't care if you have CP and your needs are different from someone with autism. All in together.

I worry. I really do.

[MurderOfGoths]

"I don't know what they stand for, are you seriously saying that disabled children will be at risk? No one in their right mind would vote for a party who would hurt these children."

Awww.. you are so sweet and innocent.

[sukysue]

It's not failing in my wonderful school thank god.

[PeneloPeePitstop]

Suky many purely perceive UKIP to be Tories with immigration policies. When you read in depth, as I have done, as I am genuinely trying to find a party I can ally myself with (will never forgive Labour for ATOS and Miliband's comments on Welfare Reform) it's frightening.

[PetiteRaleuse]

Ed Miliband is not blessed with charisma but the more I see of him, the more I like him.

[elizaregina]

Goth

horrific abuse of people with LD is also alive and kicking in the inclusion community as well. I dont know anything of UKIPS policies - or anything about thier stance on the disbaled.

HOwever - inlcusion in the comminty for some people with LD is failing horrifically.

[PeneloPeePitstop]

Still supports welfare reform... Still leader of the party that gave this country ATOS...

[sukysue]

'Ie no state education or healthcare, euthanasia for the elderly, congregate communities for disabled people.' Is this really what UKIP have said? Why didn't the other members of the panel discuss this with him last night? How can they let it go? Why do they ? Is it because they are not strong enough to challenge him?