Anyone discouraged kids from university in light of tuition fee rises?

[Officedepot]

In light of uni fees now being £9k per year (so £27k for three year degree) plus living costs students starting uni now would be coming out with debt over £40k

Anyone actively discouraged kids from going to uni on this basis?

I can understand if they are going to a top uni to study medicine or law etc, but AIBU to suggest if they are going to a rubbish uni to do a pointless degree it should be discouraged.

I have lots of friends who did degrees at second rate unis in random subjects and are still earning a tiny amount in their early 30s.......

I am glad my 19 year old has chosen a totally different career and is not going to Uni like her brother did. She is training to be a chef on an apprenticeship wage of £2.60 per hour at a hotel in Manchester. Not a piece of cake (sorry about the pun) by any means but she loves it so far even if the shifts are rubbish.

She will be able to do NVQs soon and hopes to be taken on by the hotel full-time soon.

Her brother (22) gained a 2:2 History degree and now works at the factory where is Dad is in management but not in same department.

The social aspect of university was vital for me. Had I been working to earn money every spare minute I was not studying I would not have developed the social skills needed to "make it" in my profession (I'm 1st generation university, educated in a council estate comp, I have no friends from those years and lots from university - although none from my course (law)).

I don't mean going out, getting smashed and creating memories of that sort of merriment. I mean having the time to meet up with people, join some of the social societies at university, establish some hobbies and make new friends through all of that. That's what made me "me" and studying at home or working whenever I wasn't studying would have radically diminished those opportunuties and, as a result, my employment prospects (I say that as someone partly responsible for recruiting trainee solicitors at my previous firm).

JustGettingOnWithIt, I don't know if it's a standard thing across all universities. I doubt it to be honest but I'd imagine most universities have at least some kind of assistance for children of staff members. Before the increase in fees it was a 100% discount.

In the university I work at and as far as I am aware all staff who have been directly employed by the university for at least a year are eligible. You don't have to be teaching staff (I'm not) but sub-contracted staff like the cleaners and security guards don't qualify.

Thanks Hesterton I think that's exactly the route he will go down. We're going to encourage him to spend a couple of years working in Outdoor Ed or sailing or something he's loved (and got loads of experience with), until he chooses what he's going to do more long term.

Thanks Snorbs, very interesting. Hope the desperation doesn't smell too much!

Bright but SEN d/s who wants to study engineering, but will have to do it from home which limits.
Encouraging him, but only if he can get into a reasonable (engineering wise) uni with reasonable grades.

We?re getting told again and again that his chances of getting initial employment in the industry are lowered from some uni?s, and that if you don?t get your foot in the door quickly post degree you will struggle as they move onto the next batch of recent graduates and it?s very hard to gain employment if you?re ?out of date? by a year.

He will take a little bit longer than most to reach adult independence but should get there in the end and should be employable, (he?s extremely bright but at a price) but won?t know if he?s cut out for it without him actually doing it.

We?ve done the maths very carefully and as a very low income family, using all likely grants and assuming him to be unlikely to be capable of working alongside studying, (likely) his total debt at today?s interests rates, living very frugally, by the time he graduates; appears to be either £46,000 according to directgov, or £50,000 according to uniguide.

On a starting salary of £25,000 and normal career advancement he would repay £154,030, over 30 years and will still owe over £25,000 at 51 according to direct gov, so that £100,000 a lifetime better off is gone straight away.

It?s beyond terrifying to be encouraging him towards such a massive debt regardless of all this ?write of? palaver, as we don?t believe for a minute the governments of the future wont find some way of punishing further those they reckon have been advantaged, but his ability to live on his wits like the rest of his family is poor, so?

I don't have kids yet but if/when I do and they're old enough I would sit down with them and go through the employment stats as well as pointing out some things that most people - usually the ones who haven't been to university - don't realise, that is that regarding getting onto your career path and going upwards also can depend on the connections you make at uni as well as doing as much relevant work experience as you can.

As someone who went to a 'second rate' university I'd like to say that I'm proud of going to where I did (a former poly up north). Just because some places aren't Russell Group doesn't mean they're not worthwhile. We can't all go to U.C.L! I graduated with 5K debt but would happily have spent many times that amount, primarily for the reasons that herethereandeverywhere gave. A degree is about more than having a nice career. Some things are priceless.

I agree with everything Hesterton has said on this thread.

BackforGood something your ds might like to consider is getting some good office skills and looking for temping work. My dd didn't finish her degree (it was a difficult choice, but the right one for her after much soul searching). She certainly found that loads of jobs needed degrees but was taken on by a company as a temp and then invited to apply for a permanent job. My feeling (though I don't know for certain) is that she a) would never have applied for the job in the first place because it wouldn't have looked all that appealing on paper - and was in an area she knew nothing about and b) they wouldn't normaly have considered her as a candidate without a degree had they not seen what she could do first. It's a way of testing the water and can be quite well paid.

My ds has a degree - from a drama school. No-one who employs him is remotely interested in the fact that it is a degree - though they are interested in where he trained. He's doing very well, compared to many, but he's probably not going to be paying back his loan any time soon...

I have a degree but have scarcely used it in my career to be honest. I'm not sorry I have it - but I do think it's very different now. I think the fact that degrees are now asked for where they are not needed (because the nature of the job does not need the same skills as studying at University) is a scam - and a worrying one. Capable people without degrees (as described so eloquently in an earlier post by Hesterton) are at a much greater disadvantage than they used to be.

There are plenty of so-called "vocational" courses that turn out a lot of students who are not going to get work within that "vocation". Mind you, drama school is one of them .

FredFred that's just the worst case scenario though. Best case, you get a job you love.

When it has been a few years since school and you have grafted in the workplace for a bit, the learning part feels like so much more of an exciting opportunity. Hesterton I couldn't agree more - it's what I did and I would encourage ds to do the same, particularly if there wasn't a course he was chomping at the bit to do straight from school.

Mum2 I worked in catering for donkeys years and although it's hard, hard graft it can be great fun and very satisfying. I know several chefs who have gone to university later in life too; the option is still there for her if she discovers an aptitude and a passion for something else (plus she'll be able to earn decent money working PT throughout her studies).

Southeast yy re connections. I agree that some things are pricelss, too (another former-poly gradutate )

Very interesting thread.

I'd never actively encourage either of my two to go to university because I think there are some pretty useless courses out there - and three years for most subjects is TOO BLOODY LONG. I'd encourage them to look into all sorts of other training/courses and ways into their chosen careers or areas of interest.

If they do want to go to university (they are both very academic - like all Mumsnetter's children ) I'll advice them to choose vocational courses or at least have a rough idea of what they wanted to do and choose the course and uni wisely.

I did an English degree, but honestly spend 80% of my time down the pub AND got a 2:1!

HOWEVER:

Even though I don't value my degree or the university experience in itself very much - crucially it enabled me to do a vocational post grad degree years later and train in a prosperous and enormously satisfying career that I still love.

So kind of on the fence...

Nope ds2 wants UNi had marked which ones and a levels picked for course he wants he started planning before picked gcse

But he looked and said he rather have nearer UNi so can live at home and reduce costs so is being realstic about it

Aware we are fortunate to live near several UNis

Do people really think "employment stats" are that relevant to degree level jobs - if you don't enjoy your job, you're not very employable, because the employers soon recognise it. You shouldn't pick a career based on what other people do - it should be what you enjoy, certainly there are some careers with very low employability and it doesn't make much sense to invest in those, but neither does it make sense to pick one with a high chance of employment despite not enjoying it.

I'm more worried about the massification of HE. It seems to me that many students sit in large groups and receive a bland diet of pre-approved lectures that don't offend anyone, and there is more emphasis on lecturers marking essays in a timely manner than encouraging brilliance. Student feedback leads the educational provision, but a lot of the time students are only asked about superficial aspects of learning and not about the deeper processes.

Meanwhile universities try every trick in the book to keep students spending money in campus coffee shops, on fancy en suite accommodation, etc. That's not what I want for my kids. I'd like my kids to get an education and learn to be stroppy, not to become consumers or educational drones.

But employment stats are important when deciding whether or not the investment of going to university is worthwhile. Yes you should do something you enjoy, but its also important to check that doing that degree will lead to the career you hope it will.

If only 1 in 20 of the people starting a course get graduate-level employment at the end then that tells you something important about how valuable that course is likely to be to your future career. It is possible to then decide that you are willing to take the risk or can afford to do it for fun, but if not then look elsewhere. Sometimes minor differences in courses (like working with local employers, sandwich years) can make a big difference to long-term prospects.

Thanks verlaine - we'll look into it.
I agree with the "massification" point BoffinMum - it's ridiculous the numbers of students lecturers are expected to lecture at any one time in some institutions... I've even come across the lecture being video linked into a 2nd lecture theatre. what hope has a student got of asking a question / clarifying something ?

Right, I will be arranging a meeting with DS2s friends' parents and we will pair them off into civil partnerships.

Typical university promotional film giving an image of what you pay your £9k a year for.

Spoof version.

People are looking at this all wrong and partly it is the government's fault for not calling it what it really is.

The current system isn't really a loan anymore. It's more akin to a graduate tax.

It saddens me to see people put off by the notion that they will be leaving with '£40k of debt'

The reality is that under the new system you pay less back per month than the system it replaces. Yes the overall 'debt' is higher but this gets written off after 30 years regardless of what you have repaid.

So if you graduate and earn £21k, you take home £1400 per month and have to repay £39. And it goes up as you earn. So one day if you are lucky enough to earn £50k you repay £256 per month....a lot yes but then you are also taking home £3k per month. Less than 10% of your take home pay.

Of course if you compare it to the good old days where you got a full grant and no fees then this system sucks. But those days have long gone and will never return no matter which government is in power. So we need to just accept that as fact and move on.

My daughter will be going to uni in a couple of years. The way I see it is that there are no guarantees that a degree will guarantee her a good job. But statistically she will earn significantly more over her working life with a degree than without. So as a parent my job is to maximise her chances and this is one of the ways.

Would I prefer my child to compete in the world with a degree or without? The answer is 'with'.

My dd is in her first year of a teaching degree. I don't suppose she will end up earning shed loads somehow! It seems to me the problem is not so much the fees and paying them back in the future, but the daily cost of living, accommodation etc

Statistically speaking, higher achieving graduates who work full time in graduate level jobs from the off will command a premium in wage terms.

However for some graduates there is no premium at all, and in some cases, once you have taken 3-4 years of loss of earnings into account, they may do less well than if they hadn't gone to university.

This group includes people who end up working part time out of choice or necessity, people who take maternity leave, people who have career breaks, people who study for arts degrees, and people who live in certain parts of the country, or who attend post-92 institutions.

Therefore there isn't an automatic link between paying to go to university and enhanced earning power. This fallacy is based on misquoted research.

I hope all ours go. Three have graduated so far. We had a bit of these issues as there were some fees for them but not the £9k deferred there now is and I simply chose to pay the fees and support them so they were in the same position I was on graduation. My parents in their day also paid (there were no grants if your family income was middle not low in my day). Given how the state often changes rules on all kinds of things it would be surprising if state finances get even worse they suddenly decide to lower the £25k when you pay it back or 30 year period to £15k and 50 years or take husband's or wife's income or your capital into account.

SO if you know you will always earn very little or you just want to marry young and never work again even then you may risk a change in loan rules which means you have to pay it back. If we take one of my offspring on say £65k mid 20s I think it best to be loan free. That of course might require your mother to pick well paid work and not be a housewife so it will be a lifestyle issue/choice for some women - stay home an saddle my child with debt and present and image that women serve men and clean or go to work and ensure my children can graduate debt free.

(hereand, on the feminism point there is the option many women take which is very short maternity leave and back to full time work, no career impact at all - it works really well for many of us, particularly those who do not marry sexist men and in a sense is the pure option as it keeps yo on a level pegging with men)

I've already spoken to my 2 about the option of attending a local university and living at home. We are lucky as we are in commuter distance to Bristol, Bath, Cardiff, etc. and several local colleges are affiliated with these universities.

They are aware that if they live here, we can help them out financially, but if they go away to uni, we can only contribute towards rent and food.

They are both doing very well at school and I want them to have as many options as possible but we need to be realistic about the cost of a degree.

Xenia, potential illness also need to be taken into account. Of the young perosn, or of the people financially supporting the young person. Doesnt happen that often, but it does happen sometimes.
No ones future continous income stream is guaranteed.