To not understand they UK class war???

[Notcontent]

Right, so I was just reading the "not fitting in on MN" thread and that got me thinking about something i have thought about many times: why is it that there seems to be a bit of a class war - the whole work class versus middle class thing. I just don't understand it. I have lived in the UK for quite some time, but I just don't get it.

Why, for example, it is seen as a middle class thing for children to eat vegetables?? This is actually very personal to me, because I have just discovered that my dd is being picked on at school about the contents of her lunch box. Now it seems I know why.

[Mrsjay]

veg is middle class WHAT I really dont have a notion of class one way or another I do think it means a lot to people but meh it really means nothing,

[FunBagFreddie]

No doubt some of the people who have contributed to this thread are MC? There's some truth in all sterotypes. WC people often have staffies and rotties, whereas MC people have border collies and labs. Stereotyping? Perhaps, but there's also a lot of truth in it.

[Peetle]

I'd say a lot of the class system in the UK is based on some folk insisting they're "better" than others, despite having less money. Not that I'm saying having more money makes you "better".

[MariaMandarin]

FunBagFreddie: They used to until all the traditional working class jobs were taken away. Now we are left with large areas of working class housing and habitation with no jobs to support the area.

[MariaMandarin]

I think it's quite safety deride the middle class since they hold all the power in our society. I feel quite sure they are hardly concerned if some people find it funny that they like butternut squash in their lunch box.

[InNeedOfBrandy]

Yes I agree it seems WC are now lowerMC or underclass.

[mrskeithrichards]

Nah it's more simple than that. If you work you're working class.

[InNeedOfBrandy]

No I see so many WC type of men and women in manual jobs that would call themselves MC and don't identify with WC anymore.

[Mrsjay]

that would call themselves MC and don't identify with WC anymore.

I thjink is more to do with their house and car that they see themselves as better middle class nothing more,

[InNeedOfBrandy]

Yes it is that mrsjay an it's this culture of everyone must have everything.

[Mrsjay]

an it's this culture of everyone must have everything

yeah I agree with you this we have to have it now culture is rife quite sad imo

[AnaisB]

I think the manual/non-manual split doesn't hold so strictly anymore because people with trades are often able to earn reasonable amount of money whilst lots of non-manual jobs are minimum wage.

[whattodotwo]

(I have name changed for this, because I'm including quite a lot of detail that might 'out' me otherwise...)

I find it interesting too, FunBag. I was brought up in a sort of 'bohemian middle class' family in an affluent part of London, but now as an adult live in a back-to-back terraced house in Yorkshire. I am a single parent with two children by two different fathers, and a well-qualified professional. I have much more education than the national average, and less money. But I couldn't be called 'nouveau pauvre' (a splendid phrase!) because I've lived like this for many years... I shop at Asda and Sainsburys for food, and Primark and M&S for clothes. Generally, working class friends think I'm posh, and the nervous middle classes think I'm a bit of a mess!

My two boys, as far as I can see, belong to different classes - or at least identify with different classes. It's weird to watch.

My eldest identifies with the working class boys and men who live around us, and with a more disengaged 'underclass'. His friends and their dads work in shops and pubs and garages, or join the army, or sign on. He got 5 GCSEs - which was an underachievement for him but more than they have. He binge drinks and smokes. His favourite foods are take-away kebabs, Chinese ribs, McD's, toad in the hole and Sunday Roast. In his social group, disagreements are often dealt with violently. He has had several brushes with the police. He expresses Sun newspaper views on most subjects. Until a couple of months ago, he had no aspirations, other than to 'get rich' in some ill-defined way that doesn't involve any actual work. He's back in college now, so maybe that will change - he has started to talk about becoming a journalist. In his free time he hangs out with his mates (sometimes on street corners, but more often at a local WMC now that he gets served) or plays on his playstation or watches Hollywood movies. He wears trackies and Adidas brand clothes and trainers, and would not be seen dead in a charity shop.

My other son is middle class. He is doing well at school, and though he doesn't like the teaching, he still likes learning. He is a bit of a geek. He goes to science club and is learning piano and guitar, and watches 'art house' films. In his free time, he will draw, or build something, or research things on the internet, or go on expeditions with one or two friends. He is vegetarian and health conscious. His favourite foods are salads, especially ones made with avocado, and any veg cooked with garlic. He rarely fights, and never starts anything physical: words are his weapon of choice. He dresses most often in ironed shirts and v-neck jumpers, and slicks his hair back like a 50s film hero. He plans to be a film director or an architect or scientist.

Of course they are young, and their habits and aspirations might change - they almost certainly will. But it is fascinating to me to watch them make such different choices, and signal their identities to the world with the food they eat, the clothes they wear, their hobbies and their attitudes to school...

What I can't quite work out is how specific choices and behaviour become identified with different classes... It isn't to do with money, because there is no doubt that DS1's chosen lifestyle costs much more to maintain than DS2's...

[mrskeithrichards]

Exactly, it's personality and not class. This notion that certain activities or interests are an indication of class is odd.

I enjoy rock music and classical, I bake cupcakes and wear an apron and then go to mcd's for dinner. I use washable nappies but bottle feed. I smoke but know a bit about fine wine. I detest quilted Barbour jackets with hunter wellies and wear motorbike boots. Our weekends are bike rides and museums and curling up in front of the fire because it's free and we're seriously skint right now. It's all bullshit.

[mercibucket]

There is of course also the spread of the middle classes upwards, so the upper classes now call themselves middle class. Someone upthread said we are ruled by the middle classes. This is not true. Do you remember david cameron and his 'sharp elbowed middle classes' that he and sam were part of? She is aristocracy and he is descended from one of our many kings. They are very very rich and very upper class. But it is cosier for the proles to pretend they are like us.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

The class system is alive and well in Britain,Mumsnet can illustrate that quite well.

Only in the UK can the political parties argue that Labour is more posh the Conservatives because they went to less expensive fee paying scho

[dinkybinky]

I think there are 2 distinct classes ....... posh or chav

[MariaMandarin]

Whattodotwo: Interesting. I have heard people say 'my brother/sister is a chav' so maybe it's not that uncommon for siblings to have different attitudes. I think that your ds2's lifestyle will cost more to maintain in the long run though. He will probably want to go to university, then live in a good area and move to a more expensive city for a rewarding job.

[Mrsjay]

I think there are 2 distinct classes ....... posh or chav

Im neither oh no im just confused now do i want to be posh or a chav

[Alisvolatpropiis]

*paying schools.


The only difference is now,the working class barely exist. The definition of working class was to work in industry,producing things. So,factories,working in the mines. Given Thatcher started closing down British industry in the 1980's and Blair,Brown and Cameron were and are willing to continue to dismantle it.

Instead the middle class has become incredibly broad. Hence people who are barely affected by child benefit being cut,to whom paying top rate of tax barely makes a dent and those who are royally fucked by it.

It is disingenuous to say the class system doesn't exist or doesn't affect you. People who are foreign nationals in the UK often say both. Just because you can't work out where you fit,doesn't mean you don't. That's the beauty of the class system...eventually everyone will realise where their place is. Usually beneath the Oxbridge and Etonian educates hooray Henry's and their families.

[takataka]

funbag it is absolutely not true that everyone wants to be middle class

Like ineedbrandy my dad got an eductaion, a job that would probably be considered MC, bought our house, and would/could most likely be considerd MC in his retirement. He wont have it for a second though. Neither will I.

It is much much deeper than the money you have in the bank/ the job you do these days I think. Also, it means different things to different people. Its about allegiances for me i think. And it is my blood. And life experiences

[LucilleBluth]

Still laughing at vegetables being MC. I grew up very working class, I don't live a typical working class life now......whatever that may be, and my DCs certainly don't but I will always identify as working class no matter how many butter nut squashes I eat.......and I do make a mean BNS soup.

I had veggies shoved down my throat when I was growing up, we always had a fruit bowl overflowing with all kinds of fruit, we even went on foreign holidays and not just to the costa del sol, we had two cars and my parents had a mortgage........still working class though.

[takataka]

sorry...it was brandys grandad...

[takataka]

I also think its an attitude and approach to life...but cant articulate that right now

[InNeedOfBrandy]

YY takataka my grandparents moved out from their council house and had their own residential home business. My grandad would drink single malt £100 a bottle whiskey and smoke a cuban cigar and go to france for smelly cheese and the vineyards, but he was still WC.