to think young children who are grade 8 in piano

[SnarfEggbert]

cannot really understand all that they are playing?

My dc is 6 and is taking his grade 2 (no stealth boast this is not a remarkable achievement), the step up from grade 1 to 2 is huge, so therefore to grade 8 must be extreme.

My dc is having to learn about dotted quavers being worth 0.75 of a crotchet and semi-quaver being worth 0.25 of a crotchet. And add semi-quaver's to minims and all sorts of fractional equations. And how 6/8 work etc. Now my dc can play the music, but is slower at the maths (and in class is classed as being advanced at maths) element of the music.

So these children who go through music rapidly at a young age, are they just taught the music without knowing really what they are playing? Or are they all maths prodigies as well?

And do they have theory of music as well, and the scales or just the music pieces?

[VerityClinch]

The sight reading element of the exam alone must mean they are pretty bloody amazing.

I can "learn" anything on the piano, given plenty (like, weeks) of time to sit and study the score, figure out the phrasing etc etc but I can't sight read for toffee.

[jamdonut]

I thought piano exams were graded a little bit different to all the other forms of instrument ,so that grade 8 piano is not the same thing at all as grade 8 violin or flute...but I may be wrong.
My daughter took grade 5 theory at age 14 and passed on second attempt. According to her school Music teacher it is a bit higher level than the GCSE she is doing in school at the moment! I cannot imagine that 6 year olds could pass it unless total prodigies??? She is now doing grade 8 flute, which is fairly advanced stuff.

[WelshMaenad]

I t

[jamdonut]

She is nearly 16, by the way and is considered Gifted and Talented at music. But she is also very good at maths (not like me)and just about everything else she does.

[teacher123]

As a music teacher I can safely say that some people are extraordinarily talented from a very young age and that music makes sense to them in a way that is incomprehensible to 'normal' people. A good friend of mine who is a professional performer (and the most talented person I've ever met) once told me that she didn't understand how people couldn't sight read, as it was just like reading words. There is literally nothing on her instrument that she cannot play. But she doesn't know her key signatures and it was a long standing joke at college that she couldn't tell you what note she was playing without thinking about it first. So she doesn't have 'the theory' but can play like an angel. Child prodigies are by their nature unusual, and their way of understanding music is intuitive rather than learnt.

[noteventhebestdrummer]

Some of my best young pupils are very instinctively musical and have very little intellectual understanding of notation. They catch up with the theory side at some point usually! It helps that I teach in in a fast pacy way, not with dry workbooks.

[WelshMaenad]

I took grade 5 theory aged 10 and grade 8 (classical guitar) by about 11/12. I was, and remain, mediocre at maths. When it was music, I just 'got' it. The equivalent fractions in a classroom? Fergeddit.

[gerardbutlersthighs]

I took grade 8 in year 9 and also got grade 8 theory at the same time I took my GCSEs. I was taught the theory alongside my practical, I was lucky to be taught by an exceptional pianist though who knew the merits of working hard so I was 'set' an evening routine of 45 mins practice and 15mins theory. Alongside this I was also in the local church choir and so really had music thumped into me from a young age.

I firmly believe being a musician helped me at maths and science, but even with all this practice and theory I am also, I'm afraid, very much an intuitive musician and can sight read any score you put in front of me,

[squeakytoy]

I started learning piano at the age of 4 and my teacher was very strict on theory. It did help my maths a great deal, well, fractions anyway!

[noteventhebestdrummer]

DS4 passed Gd 5 Theory aged 7 - I knew he knew the necessary facts to pass, I was amazed that he actually wrote neatly enough in the exam for anyone to read his answers!

[MummytoKatie]

I did maths at Cambridge and I'd say about 50% of our year were grade 8 in at least one instrument so there is some kind of connection.

My own experience is that I can bearly play hot cross buns on the recorder but when my friend was telling me about their flute theory and how hard it was I immediately "got" it.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I don't understand what you mean about 'knowing what they are playing' tbh. Music is a skill and once you've deciphered the dots and squiggles well enough to match fingers with notes it's quite possible to be competent and proficient. Interpretation, as with any art, comes with experience.... but that can't be measured.

[gerardbutlersthighs]

You'll also find a significant portion of linguists are musicians too

[FamiliesShareGerms]

I sort of agree with the OP, in that young children have rarely had the life experiences (eg to have loved and lost) to be able to portray some of the intense emotions that makes, IMHO, wonderful music.

But on the other hand, a vey small number of truly amazing performers have "it" from a very very early age and intuitively understand what they are doing

[socharlotte]

the link between being good at music and maths is well documented.

[KenDoddsDadsDog]

The language thing is interesting. I'm terrible at maths but fluent in two other languages.

[quirrelquarrel]

I'm nowhere near gifted in music, and I passed my Grade 5 by one mark with a VERY shaky grasp of all the components (funnily enough got full marks on something I always got nothing on in practise tests....)....went on to get Grades 6 and 7. You don't need to know much theory at all to pass in those.
I don't know if Grade 8 is so much higher up, I started learning a piece and tackling the scales and it was hard, but I'd expect any piece to be challenging at first- you need to get the feel and sense of it and there's a time when it all falls into place. Then you build on the scales you've learnt, and as long as you do well on the other sections you can pretty much bomb on aural (as I routinely do). Grades seriously mean veeery very little. I just play through my huge yellow Beatles anthology (the one you see everywhere, with chords and simple melodies, so you can play around a bit with your 'interpretation'). I don't play much more than that.

I'm certainly not saying that 10 year old Grade 8ers aren't extremely bright, but you really can just learn just what you need and no more. There are no tricks in the lesson. You do not get a holistic musical education with grades (ABRSM/TG at least, IMHO) as structure.

[Musomathsci]

It's only the Associated Board who insist on grade 5 theory before you can take any higher grade practical exams, so some children are probably taking grade 8 with other boards eg Trinity Guildhall, and bypassing the theory exams for now. However, if a child is sufficiently interested, there is no reason why they can't tackle theory at a young age. Some of the repertoire offered for grade 8 is clearly beyond the emotional capabilities of some youngsters, but there are plenty of alternative pieces so that a teacher can select suitable material for their age group. Personally I would ask what is the rush to obtain grade 8 - it's just a piece of paper after all, and doesn't prove anything more than that on a certain occasion the child was able to give an adequate performance of a set of scales, three pieces and a few aural and sight-reading tests. They may actually pass the exam despite failing the sight-reading section entirely.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

It does depend on which board you do your exams with as to whether you need grade 5 theory to advance.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

X-post

[dysfunctionalme]

Yes I think young children can "know" what they are playing, absolutely, even if the adults around them cannot appreciate it. Some kids are just startlingly brilliant.

[SomersetONeil]

Music is hugely and intrinsically mathematical - especially when studying musical theory and entire scores of music, but it's also greater than the sum of its parts and mathematic skills aren't necessarily required if you're inately musical. And of course, they're really required if you play from ear, and can't read music.

[SomersetONeil]

Not really required, that is.

[GhostofMammaTJ]

My DD1 struggled with maths. She started learning to play the flute and every single year her maths improved. She played beautifully and I was upset when she gave up.

Here is one of many possible links to show the evidence.

[FolkGhoul]

Well I'm 'musical'. I play several instruments and read music as easily/meaningfully as the written word.

I obviously know the mathematics of it, but I can't say I've ever thought about it. I don't really get how you would. I just read it and play it. Once you understand the note values I don't really understand what there is to think about.

Surely any mathematical element is very basic. I mean it's not going to help you solve quadratic equations is it!