More of a who is right.....adopted daughter

[MmmPercyPigs]

Two of my colleagues have recently had a big falling out. We are in an expat community in a Russian speaking country and colleague A (America) has recently adopted a daughter from Russia. Her DD is nearly 3 years old, and seems to be a lovely girl.

Colleague B is Canadian but of local heritage. She is furious, because colleague A has changed the girl's name (from a very obviously Russian name to a more 'Western' name) and colleague A has forbidden her nanny to speak in Russian to the girl (the girl speaks no English). Colleague B voiced her objections and the two have fallen out.

I don't really have an opinion on it, but I was interested in hearing a few more point of views.....

you don't think "words fail me" is a tad dramatic? as if there isn't anything worse anyone could do than allow a nanny to look after an adopted child within 3 months of an adoption despite the fact that it is very common for american women to go back to work quickly after adopting and there is no evidence that it has any significant effect on the attachment of their children

DS went to a childminder three months after we came home because unlike maternity leave there is no 90% of salary element in adoption leave just minimum statutory and the process had taken so long overseas that I couldn't stretch to more than 3 months after coming home with DS.

What do you suggest as an alternative to the orphanage in that case? Because that is the stark choice - you take off the time you can afford or you don't adopt them and they stay where they are. Its not like a pregnancy where if you don't get pregnant the child doesn't exist. These children exist and they are living in institutions and thankfully people choose to adopt them.

I very often have normal discussions about intercountry adoption with people in real life and am perfectly accustomed to people telling me how I got it all wrong and how selfish I am for doing it etc. But just sometimes in the midst of people being so sure they know how it should be done despite absolutely no experience I choose to tell them the reality of what its like. This is one of those occasions. And no, I'm not going to apologise for telling people that I know more about it than the majority of people on this thread. Because I do.

I tried to explain in my most recent post a bit more fully but you only seem to have read the first line.

"seeing as you are such an expert" - ha! Is that supposed to be an insult? I'm no more an expert than someone who had a caesarian is but it would be pretty bloody odd if on a thread about caesarians, if the only person (who has admitted) to have one was dismissed when they said "actually its really like this...."

I've just re-read the whole thread to try identify why I feel so angry about it. I'm not prone to angry reponses. But it has really pissed me off.

I also want to say "I told you so" when I pointed out that quite probably A wasn't planning to be in the country much longer (hence the urgency to learn English) and was very restrained at not saying it because it was the first thing that occured to me when I read the OP!

Enough now, not much point it descending into attack and defence by/on me personally.

Do. Not. Mess. With. The. Dame.

Ha ha! Now thats going to rile everyone even more Devora!

Do you know, though, becoming a parent really showed me how little I knew about anything. Becoming an adoptive parent, even more so. In fact, the older I get the stupider I feel.

I certainly don't feel I have the answers to everything - or, indeed, very much. But I do get riled by birth parents who tell me how I should parent my dd and, if I mention her adoption is a reason why I'm not making a particular choice, berate me about how all children are just the same, I mustn't use her adoption as an 'excuse' etc. I think if I didn't also have a birth child I would find this quite destabilising (I probably lack your confidence, Kew but as it is I just get very

Oh I'm not confident, there are days when I have serious doubts whether I did the right thing by DS - no doubt why I get riled by threads mentioning "scary number of children being given back" and "well meaning" adopters in the same sentence. Then he gets into bed with me in the middle of the night and warms his cold feet on me and I don't care because he's here with me and he's safe and well and loved and the rest is all detail that you can argue the toss about all day long and you'll still never know if you got it right.

Quite right .

What an inflated sense of self-importance certain people on here seem to have if they think others will be 'riled' because someone said 'don't mess with the dame'

No I don think I am a 'tad' overdramatic And you know nothing about my personal insight into adoption (which is a lot more than you choose to presume). I think you are a 'tad' dramactic with your attitude that is coming across as a 'tad' superior though.

Anyway - op, let's hope the girl in question settles into her new family well and all is well for the future.

I would think it is more important for the girl to feel comfortable and secure in her current situation, rather than make her feel isolated just so that she can be prepared for the next posting.

I also would think it is better that the girl forms a strong attachment to the nanny, even if it means having to lose that down the road, than not getting that closeness.

Children are perfectly capable of forming strong attachments to multiple people and dealing with moving on to new environments. The attachments nourish them and make them stronger for the next phase in life.

Personally I prefer people to be self-important than passive-aggressively insulting.

Flatbread, children are capable of forming strong attachments with multiple people. Unfortunately, adopted children are much less able to do this, especially if they have spent their first formative years in institutions with many different carers.

It's obviously not ideal to have a nanny at this stage. But unfortunately parenting and adoptive parenting is a lot about doing the best you can under your individual circumstances when you can't provide 'ideal' (which is quite often)

Hmm, I am not sure that adopted children are less capable of having multiple attachments. They may be slow to form attachments per se, but it should have little bearing on multiple attachments.

The studies/experiments I have read on attachments have come from a western focus of a nuclear family, where there is one main child carer, usually the mother. And trying to replicate that relationship in adopted children.

But in many cultures, there are multiple carers from an early age, and children learn to attach (or not) based on the caring shown across all these relationships.

Forming a close bond with the nanny in this time of upheaval might actually help the child feel secure and happy that will help her form a bond with her adopted mother, over time.

And it might equally be the case that the child will never be that close to her adopted mother, due to different personalities. It happens within non-adopted families as well. Does that mean the mother should not allow the child a chance to form close attachments to anyone else, just because of a narrow view that mothers must have the strongest bond with the child?

Flatbread, I think the difficulty with an adopted child who has spent time in an institution is that they quite possibly have formed no attachments in infancy. If that's the case, it's very important that the child makes an attachment with her primary carer. When we came home from Russia with our 14 month old daughter, the advice we were given by our social worker (and from the many books on attachment I had swallowed in the long wait) was to not allow anyone else to hold her, feed her, bath her etc to create that dependency relationship where the child knows her needs will be consistently met by her carers.

From the information given by the op, I presume that is what A is trying to do. No it isn't ideal that she's back to work so soon but it is much better, IMHO, that the child is being minded by a nanny as opposed to a creche situation which would be too similar to the institution she came from.

I feel sorry for the American mothers of adopted children that I know. Many of them adopted their children long after I did and are back at work months ago. What's the alternative for them? Not allow Americans to adopt? In Ireland, where I live, you have to make a commitment (not legally enforcable but would be held against you if you wanted to adopt again) that one parent will be at home with the child for its first year home. While I think that's a great start for the child, I think for many people it's a very difficult thing to commit to. We can only presume that A is doing the very best for her child and has made her decisions accordingly.

Happy, who is a primary carer? The person who spends the most of her waking day with her or a legal guardian, i.e., the adopted mother?

I am not saying this in a way to diss the nanny or mum. In my mind, both are equally important caregivers to the child in this stage in her life. And trying to diminish the role and caring provided by one, in order to establish 'supremacy' of the other, IMO, is not to the benefit of the the child.

If the child has indeed formed no attachments in her infancy, then, again, I don't see the benefit of giving her only the option of only one person to form a bond with (not someone the child chose, anyway) The child could well be better off having a number of people in her life who show her caring and love, even if the people providing the love change over time.

I think it is different models/world views on how a child ought to be brought up. The western one of a nuclear family with one primary carer while in some other cultures, it is perfectly normal and desirable for the caring to be provided by a broader community.

If the child has never formed an close attachment to anyone before (she might of, this is all hypothetical) then that may well have affected her ability to form them now and in the future. Attachment issues are common among adopted children nowadays, although it's rarer to have very serious problems with it (attachment disorder). Not just lack of attachments, but many moves and broken off relationships in a childs earliest years have the potential to cause these issues. Creating a bond with someone and then breaking it off (eg. nanny) has the potential to exacerbate the attachment issues, not make them any better, because it reinforces the message that caring people are either absent or abandon you. The child needs to learn that a reliable carer will be meeting her needs and very importantly, will not leave her and will be meeting them for a long time to come

Of course, this is one situation where the child needs to be looked after for part of the time by someone other than the mum, and every adoptive parent placed in that situation has to decide what the best thing to do for their (unique) child is - daycare or nanny or something else. And I suspect that most adoptive parents facing that decision will weigh the pros and cons for each very carefully before deciding, and isn't making decisions on a whim or selfishly, but genuinely on what they think is best for their child in their family situation

"She has just adopted a child and she leaves that child with a nanny from 7-5?

Words fail me." based on your post (though you might have made one earlier which I don't remember) I didn't presume you had no insight into adoption - I'm not psychic (just self-important).

I have an equal opportunities approach to disagreements - I disagree with any one - adopters/adoptees/non-adopters/non-adoptees if I think they are stating as a fact something they can't possibly know. I think "words fail me" indicates a rather dramatic disagreement to someone doing something. Someone else said "I think its a shame that..." I don't think that's dramatic.

Obviously I disagree because its something not a million miles away from what I did but I'm not going over it again because I'm starting to look deranged.

Creating a bond with someone and then breaking it off (eg. nanny) has the potential to exacerbate the attachment issues, not make them any better, because it reinforces the message that caring people are either absent or abandon you

So the answer is to have a distant nanny, who is not allowed to bond with the child

Anyone else, other than the parent, who has to take care of the child should keep a distance, so the child does not form a bond?

Frankly, sounds a bit insecure parenting to me.

I know a number of children (myself included) who have not had our birth mother as our main caregiver, and have been provided care by different people over varying periods of time. Love is love, and it builds your self-esteem. Doesn't matter where it comes from and even if one carer leaves, children adapt, as long as they are getting love in their lives. Multiple attachments are healthy for a child, and far better than having caregivers who don't really care or bond with you.

Obviously, some children are more insecure than others, but I find it hard to understand how anyone can advocate that the nanny not provide as much love and comfort she possibly can to the child.

Actually, if you reread my posts, I haven't advocated the nanny either bonding or not bonding with the child. I consider some relationship with her inevitable anyway given the nature of nannying. But not knowing this girl, and this family, how could I be in a position to state what the girl does or does not need?? I have been talking hypothetically (and hopefully made that clear) based on my own knowldege and experiences (I am the adoptive mother of 3 children, all of whom have difficulties with attachments)

"Doesn't matter where it comes from and even if one carer leaves, children adapt, as long as they are getting love in their lives"

Unfortunately that is definitely not always the case. My DS has always had love in his life, from foster carers or me. That hasn't stopped moves damaging his ability to form relationships securely. Yes, children adapt, but sometimes they adapt in a negative way. And he hasn't moved nearly as much as many adopted chilren I know. And again, I do not speak for this girl that i do not know

True, Lilka, some children adjust to changes harder than others, both based on their personality and experiences.

We don't know this girl at all, but it seems her new mum travels for work. So it is likely that she will have to get adjusted to new environments and carers/nannies. In this case, it seems multiple carers and attachments are inevitable.

You mention in your son's case how hard the moves were, even though he had love. I wonder how much harder the adjustments might have been, if he hadn't been given love by his carers in each new place.

I didn't read anywhere that mother travels? Only that she was planning to leave the country - ie back to America or new posting in June. Nanny is daytime only which doesn't seem to imply travel to me.

In the UK the don't allow parents to adopt a child and then leave them with a childminder. There is a reason for this.

Dame, I meant travel as in postings to different places/countries. This might mean a new nanny in every country.

Even if it is within the US, presumably A will continue working and will need to employ a nanny, and that person might leave/new one hired and so on.

Achillea, I am not sure how good the reason is...like some one mentioned upthread is institutional care any better than being cared part-time by nanny and part-time by new mum?

I find the premise underlying attachment theories i.e., a nucleur family with mum staying at home, not reflective of how children are brought up in many societies, with multiple caregivers. Nor is it reflective of our modern world, where we have single parents. Dies that mean a single career woman should not be allowed to adopt unless she wants to take a year or two off her work? How absurd is that...just puts pressure on women to confirm to some ideal 1960s family set-up.

Flatbread, that's not at all what my understanding of attachment theory is. With most children who are born to and raised by their mothers (and fathers if they're in the picture), in those early weeks and months the attachment is formed between the baby and mother when the child's needs, physical and emotional, are consistently met by her primary caregiver(s). This expectation from the child that when she's hungry she'll be fed, when she's lonely she'll be picked up and cuddled etc is what forms the attachment. This primary attachment forms a blueprint in a baby's brain for all future relationships and is HUGELY important.
I'm not talking out my arse here, I have a foster daughter who has an attachment disorder and it has been the most difficult of her 'labels' for her and for those around her to deal with. The damage that was done to her was in the first 2 years of her life.
For a child who has been institutionalised, they have learned the survival skills of 'using' any adult around them to give them what they need, be it food or a cuddle. So while their needs may be met SOMETIMES by the carers around them, they have no choice over who looks after them or whether their needs will be answered. This is (some of) what causes attachment difficulties.
This woman, A, presumably knows all of this. I would imagine (hope) that she spent at least 3 months nesting-in with her child. She will have done her best to answer every little cry her child makes to make her understand that she will always be listened to. She will have made a fuss each time her child falls to teach her to cry when she falls. She will have made a huge fuss every morning when her child wakes beside her to teach her child that when she wakes, she should shout out for her mother. 3 months is not a long time but I think about how my own dd changed in those 3 months and while I would have absolutely HATED to leave her, in the right care, she probably would have been fine. Some people don't have the luxury of good adoptive leave.

Flatbread, all people who adopt in the UK now are asked to take 6-12 months off work, including single parents. And there's a good reason for it. 12 months was not enough for my older two children, I had to give up work altogether for a time. And I am single, and yes it was hard financially. Prospective parents nowadays are told about this, and they are also warned about the possibility that the child's needs might be too great for them to return to work, although this isn't often the case.

Attachment theory is not about having a nuclear family, children from other types of set up fit well within it as well. The infant child has needs, including being fed, interacted with etc. It needs a caregiver (or several caregivers) meeting these needs consistantly over months so it can form a bond with them. If the baby cries but is ignored, if it isn't fed etc, then it can develop attachment problems. Later on, physical and sexual abuse might create or compound existing problems. Frequent complete changes in caregiver - going into foster care, then new foster home, then another one, then an adoptive home for instance, that means 5 homes, is likely to result in some level of difficulty forming new relationsips and trusting adults not to leave you. In communities which don't so much have a nuclear family, the parents still do not walk off forever and abandon the child, they are involved parents and usually they do meet all the childs needs whenever they are caring for it. The child is looked after by the same community (and set of caregivers) consistently, they aren't taken somewhere new after a year of life and given a whole new community of caregivers and then never see the old one again. Therefore the child is having their needs consistently met by a group of people who it forms a bond with over the first years of its life

Happy, I am not talking out of my arse either. There are a lot of children in other cultures who do not see their birth mother at all, for several years. The birth mother is working in another city/country, and the children are bought up by an amalgam of grandparents, uncles, aunts etc. with care takers changing depending on requirements within each household (e.g. At aunts for a month, another uncle for two etc.)

In situations where the husband has many wives, childcare may be delegated to different wives on different days, for all children.

Where extended families stay together, the family/child rearing tasks may be divided, with one aunt taking care of cooking and feeding, another of putting the children to sleep etc. As children get older, they may start taking childcare responsibilities.

A lot of women who work in other cultures, do not have the luxury to pay attention to their children cries or make a fuss over them. These children do go on to be normal.

Does that mean all these children are fucked up because they do not have a 'traditional' family structure, where there is one go-to person who fusses over them?

Attachment theory comes from a 1960s, middle class western notion of an ideal family with mum focused on kids. Fluid, multiple attachments is not a key part of this type of family structure. Doesn't mean it is wrong or unhealthy for the child who grows up in this environment (ok, some may be fucked up, but you find these type of kids in every type of upbringing)

In A's case, making the nanny speak in English to the child and trying to create a distance between the nanny and child, so that the child bonds only with new mum, IMO, is wrong and not necessarily to the benefit of the child.