to hope that the predicted cabinet reshuffle kicks Gove out of education

[creamteas]

he has done so much damage so far, I am really hoping he gets his walking papers.... even the devil we don't know has got to be better surely....

[noblegiraffe]

I'm pretty sure that you have to study Shakespeare at GCSE.

[KarlosKKrinkelbeim]

GCSEs were certainly not very testing for the brightest children when I did them, which was 2 years after their introduction. I did old O level papers for mock, and was assured by my teachers that the real thing would be tons easier. Which of course it was, and from what I understand from friends whose children have sat them recently, things have not changed. Michael Gove is right to try and do something about this, and from what I can see, most people without a vested interest in grade inflation agree. So I very much doubt his head will roll; nor should it.

[FelicitywasSarca]

I don't think many people are objecting to the idea that exams should get more rigorous. Or that we need a better measure of exactly who our brightest young people are.

It is the crack handed and frankly absurd way Gove is trying to achieve this that angers me.

[KarlosKKrinkelbeim]

Beyond the usual (and entirely predicatble) howls of "fucking Tory elitists" (overlooking, of course, Mr Gove's humble origins) I'm not sure I see much evidence of cack-handedness myself. he doesn't set the conditions for marking ao I'm not sure what the logic of those who lay the blame for the English exa,m situation at his door is (though i suspect we are not dealing with logic here, merewly politcal hatred). And he wnats to replace GCSE's - again, the usual vested interest groups don;t like this, but that generally proves to my satisfaction that he's probably doing the right thing.

[KarlosKKrinkelbeim]

I mean for fuck's sake I got 10 grade A GCSEs. As you can see from the general level of literacy I am displaying in the above post, that probably wasn't the right result

[BoneyBackJefferson]

"he doesn't set the conditions for marking"

It wasn't the marking that was called in to question.

[MigratingCoconuts]

my problem with his replacing GCSE's is the time scale he proposed. two years is a very short time for rolling in an entirely new exam. That's the current year 7 we are talking about.

Given that we want to get it right would it be unreasonable to expect enough time to decide what we want examined, how we want it examined, what the grade boundaries should be, if only the elite are doing the new O level then what wil that majority do, how will info about the new exam be communicated to schools, how will it be moderated, what coursework will there be, if any.

As I said up post. it's not the fact that he wants to reform, it's the fact that he has clearly no clue about how much needs to be carefully thought through in order to get it right and not end up screwing over the kids.

And that's just one example...

[KarlosKKrinkelbeim]

He doesn't set the grade boundaries either. The exams are controlled by an independent agency. Take issue with their competence by all means but I don't think you can make the case that Gove created the current situation, unless you are entering conspiracy theory territory

[BoneyBackJefferson]

Do I think that gove controls the boundries - No
Do I think that those that do set the boundries are being manipulated - Yes

Given that gove is pushing for a single exam board, it really isn't that hard to see a correlation between the two.

I don't think that the current system os perfect but changing back to a non perfect system is even worse.

It would also be interesting to know whether the FFT targets are going to change with the boundries or if the teachers are going to get stiffed on them.

[noblegiraffe]

No cackhandedness in the 'leak' to the Daily Mail of the plan to return to O-levels before informing even the Lib Dems leading schools to not know what the fuck is going on and creating great uncertainty? And his now saying that he has no intention to return to O-levels?

The announcement that maths exams would be harder from Nov 2012 without any clarification of what this would mean (and which has since been put back to June 2013 with still no clarification as to what it means)

What about the disasterous free schools, including one being closed days before opening costing us hundreds of thousands?

[azazello]

Yanbu, but I think he is pretty safe. So is that lying git Lansley - worse luck. The guardian thought Maria miller and grant shapps were likely to be promoted as MM has done such sterling work at cutting disabled benefits and GS has managed to keep house prices up by failing to make any very simple changes to rental arrangements.

[epeesarepointythings]

MigratingCoconuts my DD1 is going into Year 7 and I have no faith at all that whatever exams she ends up doing at 16 will not be some hastily cobbled-together bodge job.

Until politicians start taking education seriously (instead of seeing it as a way of developing a reputation that will get them promotion), there will never be a time when we get an education system and an exam system that is tailored to the people who use it.

All politicians of all political affiliations have used the education system as a way of scoring points - but Gove is doing more of it, faster, more stupidly. Yes, his aspirations are ones that no-one could argue with and that's what makes him so dangerous. We all want high standards, excellent teaching, good vocational education as well as good academic education. Actions speak louder than words, however - and Gove's actions don't speak of a man who really wants the best for all our children. If that was what he wanted, he would not be wrongheadedly rushing back to a 1950s model of the world and ignoring everything world-wide that has been researched about what makes teaching and learning effective.

[Abitwobblynow]

"Schools have been left carrying the can for a lot of shit parenting by people who should never have had children.

And before anyone flames me over 2) I think that the UK class system is alive and kicking and to blame for much of 2 - successive governments of both colours have ignored the creeping creation of a social and economic underclass and now we are reaping the consequences."

HEAR, HEAR. The solution according to Wobbly: 'parents' to be explained why sticking up for their children when teachers are trying to discipline them is deeply self-absorbed unloving, and why.

Having been given this clear explanation, to be told that if they give the school any shit whatsoever, those teachers can compel them to take parenting lessons.

Any more resistance, their benefits get cut. Also: the power to select and expell to be given to schools, not LEAs.

The underclass is a direct consequences of welfare benefits ignoring moral hazard.

As to the rest of the thread, look. The world has entered in the 1990s a new phase of globalisation, in which skills (education) are strongly rewarded. THIS, and not Margaret Thatcher is why the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer.
For our children to not be educated to their absolute fullest ability is dangerous to them, to the economy and to the country. So all power to Michael Gove's elbow. May he kick the teacher's unions into touch and pummel LEAs into extinction. May state schools feel the full force of the market place-- reality.

[creamteas]

'May state schools feel the full force of the market place reality'

Presumably you mean by this that if you can afford an indie you kids get educated and if you can't then tough?

[BoneyBackJefferson]

"May state schools feel the full force of the market place reality."

What is worrying is that you seem to believe that children's education should be treated like a commodity.

[wherearemysocka]

Profit making companies normally do such a brilliant job when they take over public services.

[epeesarepointythings]

wobbly if you think I agree with you on anything then you are sadly mistaken. By allowing state schools to be run for profit, schools will employ the cheapest staff, use the cheapest teaching materials and teach only to the test because to do anything that broadens and deepens the curriculum would eat into shareholder profit.

That is exactly what I do not want.

And apart from that I agree with everyone else who has pointed out that the private sector's record on running public services has been as far from stellar as it is possible to get.

[marriedinwhite]

We moved a child from a state school 12 months ago. Academically that school was brilliant. However, its hands were tied in relation to behaviour. It could not exclude even those who were engaging in behaviour that was criminal. The fear and the disruption was entirely negative. No teacher should be expected to teach in an environment where a child can persistently disrupt and direct foul language at the professional at the front of the class. No child should be taught in an environment devoid of boundaries - in an environment where boundaries are known and observed the child receives an all round education rather than merely teaching. Children deserve an education and a sound one whether it results in qualifications or not.

If free schools allow for some selection and allow parents to chose the rights schools for their children again, on the basis that one size does not fit all, then I wholeheartedly support free schools. I also wholeheartedly support increased funding and taxation for special units where the utterly dysfunctional can receive the support they require. In the long term this has to be more cost effective than allowing the teaching, learning and social well being of the majority to be diluted.

[noblegiraffe]

Take issue with their competence by all means but I don't think you can make the case that Gove created the current situation, unless you are entering conspiracy theory territory

I don't think for a minute that Gove can claim he had nothing to do with it, and no influence in Ofqual. I think it's pretty well known in political circles that what Gove wants, Gove gets.

Let's recap the history leading up to this
Coalition government gets into power
The chair and chief executive of Ofqual both quit saying that the timing of their departure shortly after the arrival of the coalition (and therefore Gove) is not a 'complete coincidence'.
Glenys Stacey takes over as chief of Ofqual and says that grade inflation is an unhelpful label for possibly better teaching and hard work, and also suggests ministers have misunderstood how modular exams work.
She then completely changes her mind and declares grade inflation impossible to justify and that modules need to go. As she was appointed by Gove (and perhaps with an eye on what happened to her predecessors) I suspect he may have had some influence here.
Ofqual then lean on exam boards to curb grade inflation with artificial grade depression to achieve 'comparable outcomes'.
Gove bangs on about a future single exam board and how the current exam boards will have to compete for the rights to offer GCSEs. Favoured exam boards will get the plum subjects, rigour is the key. Exam boards will therefore want to look rigorous and tough to impress him.

Completely out of the blue and totally unexpectedly, exam passes drop for the first time in decades. Gove says he's shocked. It turns out that in order to get this increased failure rate, grade boundaries have been manipulated far beyond the norm. (This happened in Maths as well as English but English has got the publicity because of the controlled assessment issue).

Of course he had nothing to do with it.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

"If free schools allow for some selection and allow parents to chose the rights schools for their children again"

When all free schools become selective, what then?

You of course believe that your child will pass any selective test, what if they don't?

[FelicitywasSarca]

"If free schools allow for some selection and allow parents to chose the rights schools for their children again"


You are obviously educated and care enough to make an informed choice about your child's education.

What about the children of the badly educated or worse unloving/uninvolved.

Are they to be left to sink together?

[Sallyingforth]

2) Schools have been left carrying the can for a lot of shit parenting by people who should never have had children.

Absolutely right!!!!
But how do you stop them?

[FelicitywasSarca]

I've got another one or two for the history lesson.

Gove creates a rule that says failing schools must become academies.

Ofsted changes the wording of 'satisfactory' (which has always bloody well meant get your finger out....). To requires improvement. Might there be more 'officially failing' schools in the future perchance?

Gove proves he has a poor grasp of Maths when he states every child should receive an 'above average' education.

Gove proves before he is elected that his ideas are badly researched as, when I asked him- 'what evidence is there that the Swedish education model could be replicated successfully here? How do we know that this will raise standards?' He replied, 'you know, I don't have an answer to that, but there will be people who do'

He is a moron.

Oh and I am not a Tory hater, in fact in many ways I quite like them. But Gove? He's a power crazed loon. FGS the man is arrogant enough to write a forward to the Bible... You couldn't make this shit up.

[Abitwobblynow]

Pointy I am not concerned with your fellowship at all. I agreed with half of what you said, and certainly not the other half.
As to your horror of market forces: please explain why, then, the educational sector that is most subject to market forces, achieves the best results.

Answer: Adam Smith and the fact that the people who have the most interest (parents) holding the cheque book. NOT the unions or the LEA. The schools give them what they want, see? And what they want, is for their children to get a good job at the end of it. Hence the Sutton report that identifies that independent schools respond quickest to market forces. It really is not rocket science.

Your answer, which makes the case for protecting teachers from the direct consquences of their teaching (ie: results), is typical of one cushioned from the real world.
State schools, a body geared to the interests of the providers and not the recipients, let down our children. And everything Michael Gove can do to smash that cosy little arrangement, has my full and ardent support.