Aibu about this dictation based Art homework

[fastweb]

Third week of school
Equivalent to British year 7
Art class
The kids had a dictation about the history of art.
It's about one and a half sides of A4 with not large writing, skipping one line between lines, he thinks he failed to get down about a 1/4 of what was dictated.
 He is not great at dictation because he either writes slowly in an effort to keep it legible, and misses chunks of sentences OR he speeds up...and neither of us can read a word of it. This has been an issue since the first dictation in year 1. We've practiced extensively over the last 2 years,  but while he has got better his speed still isn't fast enough to keep up and get an accurate complete copy of the dictation.
The teacher then told the kids to study the dictation they produced for an oral test.
He will need to be able to answer questions worded in a way that as closely as possible quotes from the dictation.
Except no matter how hard he tried to memorize the dictation he wouldn't be able to achieve that level of accuracy, and would most likely fail, or score low on the test, which will harm his GPA. Because in the absence of a clean copy, his study is based on a text that has some missing bits, confused bits that don't make sense and some bits that defy all attempts to decipher them.
As a result we have had to leave the study to the last minute because it has taken me 2 days to cobble together a "clean" copy after playing telephone ping pong  (of the mutual dictation kind) with a couple of mums who have a child in the same class.
Art is on 2 consecutive days, so the above telephone ping pong won't always be an option thanks to the time frame.
This is far from an uncommon practice, the chances are we will be facing the same issue in all other subjects through out the year.
I appreciate that a mainly British forum can't help much with the more typical "and what to do about it" phase of a question like this, given that the system in Britain is very different.
My main objective is to get opinions, parental and professional, regarding the extent to which the practice is unreasonable (or not) and why/why not it is good teaching practice.
Because conversations with family, friends and other parents leave me feeling like I must be bonkers to take the view that dictation/memorise resultant student copy of dictation is something more serious than a minor annoyance.
My son has been back at Italian state school for about three and a half weeks after two years of home ed.
And I am already flooded with such a sense of deja vu. Me being very hacked off with teaching practice, everybody else regarding anything above mild annoyance as being a massive over reaction, me then wondering if perhaps I am slightly bonkers to take the view I do. 
Is it me ? Are they right and I am making a fuss about nothing ? Could this be me seeking out ways to find fault with the school system here (again) because I am culturally prejudiced against it  and the dictation thing is actually not that bad an idea ?
I absolutely want honest opinion. If this is about a problem with me or my attitude or blowing "nit picks" up out of proportion, my approach to dealing with the school issue has to radically change, as does my mind set.
If it not me I need external confirmation of my viewpoint so I can move forward without second guessing myself on a five minutely basis, and approach the school to seek some changes with rather more faith in myself that I am doing the right thing, than I have at this minute.
I'd rather find out I am unreasonable and plain old wrong than be stuck in this limbo of not being sure what's what anymore.
Cos at least then I could start doing something about it, be a more effective parent to my son and stop feeling so miserable and het up(what with all the second guessing of myself) cos I'd know where I stand and would just have to deal with the practical side of things.

[AKMD]

I went to an Italian university and it is exactly the same: write down what the lecturer says, parrot it back in an oral or written exam. Do not attempt to argue a different viewpoint because the lecturer will be offended that you are questioning his/her wisdom. Coming from the UK school system, that was a bit of an eye-opener!

If you want your DS to succeed in the Italian school system, he will need to get very good at this style of learning. There is no point arguing about it because it is the same all the way through to the highest levels and is not going to change.

The options I can think of are:

1. Take him back out of school and re-start home-ed.
   
2. Send him to an international school, if that is an option.
   
3. Keep him at the state school. Practice hard at handwriting. Get handwriting books from the UK if you can't find anything in Italian. Then practice writing at speed. Then dictation. This is not a short-term solution obviously but it's a skill he needs to learn asap to succeed in the system (and I know you have been trying). Short-term, get a copy in advance of whatever the teacher is going to dictate so that he can study from it. Pay for the copy yourself if you need to. Only get out the clean copy if his notes are absolutely illegible.
   
   That's it. YANBU to be cross but it will achieve nothing. Either your DS must change to fit the system or you must change the system he is in.

[fastweb]

just wanted to be sympathetic and resure you that no its not you thats bonkers







No really, thank you. Sympathy is most welcome cos there is precious little of going over here.



I've actually cried in the last few days. I can't remeber the last time I cried before this.



I keep going round in circles and then concluding that the problem is me, I'm a crap mother who either fails her son socially or acdemically depending on his current place of learning (and possibly culturally on top, now I've had to dump English in favour of mountians of homework)



And My husband doesn't understand me 



No, seriously, when I get upset or angry I revert to English and he is left standing there completly lost.



Other than the occasionaly "fucking HELL" and my decade old recurring  anthem of "your bloody country and your bloody mother who is going to live for fucking ever so you always have a good excuse why we can't try my home for a fucking change and then you'll what this feels like and it will serve you right!"

[AKMD]

You aren't a bad mum. Bad mums do not home-ed their child (properly) for 2.5 years, nor do they spend 2 days ringing round people who don't speak the same language as them to try to help their DC with their homework.

Italy was a massive culture-shock to me. I couldn't understand why mums did everything for their sons or why there were TVs in every nice restaurant showing football all the time, or why I was learning by rote at university level. Obviously, some things were very nice and I loved it, but it is so very different from the UK, more so than anyone just passing through on holiday would ever appreciate. It is hard.

Your DH needs to learn English if he doesn't follow you in conversation.

[readsalotgirl]

Sorry I hadn't read the thread properly when I suggested returning to HE or finding another school. You are not a bad mum. Fwiw my sister has been in Italy 33 years and I spent hours on the phone listening to her ranting about problems her kids were having with school. She also spent hours doing helping them with their homework and spent a fortune on private tutors especially for maths and Latin. My neice and nephew are bright kids with no special needs - my neice esp in my opinion was v. intelligent and had a very inquiring mind as a small child and was very creative also. I think she was completely stifled by the school system in Italy and has not done nearly as well as I would have expected her too. (That may be down to her personality as she developed major "teen behaviour" at about 14/15 and doesn't seem to have grown up much since). I was astounded to hear one of her friends failed her final exam and will therefore be 20 before she finishes school. However as others have said if you want to stay in the system you need to find strategies to make it work for you. Could he learn shorthand ? Or as others have suggested ask for "clean" copies to be supplied to you to be used as a last resort. I wish you luck.

[MrsVoltar]

Apologies if this is not relevant/appropriate.

Can he not copy from his friends at break/lunch to check his? I regularly used to 'help' friends in my class at school if they missed stuff.

[Bonsoir]

When I was at school, I learned history and geography by the dictation/memorisation/regurgitation method for five hours a week for five years (the final five years of secondary).

Taking word perfect dictation in longhand in an impeccably presented exercise book was an integral part of the lesson and contributed to the final mark, along with impromptu tests and end-of-term tests.

[Bonsoir]

[fastweb]

Your DH needs to learn English if he doesn't follow you in conversation.

To be fair he can understand when I'm not opining on the finer points of an educational phil/meth....or going purple in the face in the face with anger and/or blubbing.

He had to learn to at least understand English when our son first started to talk ...or feel very left out of conversations.

I spent hours on the phone listening to her ranting

I think my sister could relate to that

Can he not copy from his friends at break/lunch to check his

There just ins't enough time love, first lesson starts at 7.50 and school ends at 1.37 with just one ten minute break in the day. I can't even grab a kid and menace ask them to lend me their work for a quick trip to the photocopy place cos The mums want to get lunch into the kids sharpish.

One of my newer stratagies seems to be workng though, his best mate, and desk partner at school is on loan to me from 3.30-7.00 for their dynamic duo study group twice a week, and I've just had a most productive rifle in his school bag. Fireing up the printer cum photocopier as we speak

Bonsoir

In your considered opinion, given that time is one resouce we are most short on, is there anything specific I can do to help him speed up, without sacrificing legibility ?

Or is the only to kill of an afterschool activity and use that time to keep on practicing dictation ?

Are there any tricks or tips that I don't know about ?

[AKMD]

Check his grip is the most obvious thing. If he isn't holding his pen properly, he won't be able to write fast.

Check his pen and get him a more comfortable/less smudgy one if needs be.

Teach him to type and send him in with a laptop :)

Tell him to miss out 'and' 'the' 'a' and other small words that can easily be filled in with a bit of imagination.

Continue to bribe feed his study pal excellent food so taht he always comes to your house and you can photocopy.

[noblegiraffe]

Oh god that sounds a dreadful way of teaching, especially the memorising of potentially incorrect material. They should at least take the dictation in first, correct it, then hand it back to be memorised. Or better still, memorise a textbook and skip out the dictation bit. What a waste of time.

And after all your problems with Set Theory too!

[fastweb]

Check his grip is the most obvious thing. If he isn't holding his pen properly, he won't be able to write fast.

That's a good point actually. I'm a lefty and write in an oddostion so all righties look comfortable with a pen in their hand to me. Is there anything specifc I should look out for ?

He does complain an awful lot that writing hurts, I put it down to work aviodence based whinging...but maybe not ?

He can type though, and use dragon dictation and a host of other apps, cos while the school is focused on honing his skills for yesterday's working world, I'm taking care of the one's of today and if I keep my eye on the balls that should mean tomorrows phase in seamlessly as they take their place in the mainstram.

[diddl]

I´m sure I remember a lot of note taking at school tbh.

But usually you shorten words & don´t try to take it down verbatim-just the salient points.

[AKMD]

Yes, grip definitely matters. I hold my pen in a wird way and it causes my hand to cramp when I try to write fast. I also wrote a lot slower than everyone else at school used to, which really pulled me up short when it got to timed essay exams. A good resource that shows you the right grip and lists indications of a poor grip is www.getreadyforschool.com/preschool/pencil_grip.htm.

TBH though the Italian state school system is pants. Is there no way you could get him to an international school or home-school him again?

[fastweb]

And after all your problems with Set Theory too!

I know !

Talk about kicking a woman when she's down.

ps, there is a little something for you on the "new thank you icon" thread

[readsalotgirl]

Quite a lot of the time she was extremely frustrated and concerned. I have to say it seemed to be reeaaaaally hard work getting two reasonably bright kids through the system - and neither came out at the other end covered in academic glory. I can't imagine what it must be like for any kids with support needs or how parents of such kids cope. I'm with AKMD - keep feeding the best mate and rifling (carefully!!) in his school bag.

[fastweb]

Is there no way you could get him to an international school or home-school him again

IS would be a real long shot, it'd mean a three hour comute in the NON foggy seasons and I don't see how we can afford it, I nearly fell over when I saw the fees.

I can't take HE off the table. If that is what he needs then I will make it happen. But at this age the impetus to go back to it has to come from him, and even if he does decide that the social contact at school isn't worth the schooling I can't just yank him out.

If he makes a firm decsion before March, and I'm sure it is not just a bad reaction to a recent events around that time but a genuine reflection of how he feels, then we can get the request i within the timelimits for the next academic year.

I just have a horrible feeling he will chose to stay in for the sake of being better meshed with his peer group and chose to dump any academic achievement as a bad job, so why bother anymore.

See that the key issue for me, I can't provide the social enviroment he needs AND the educational enviroment needs all at the same time, I have to pick one, and I don't want to, cos on the surface it seems so simple, pick the education but I
thought I had done a fabby job of that side for two years, and it turned out it was not nearly as "complete and like everybody else" as he absolutly wanted.

Plus I'm worried that with puberty looming I'm going to miss a social devolpment/opportunity window if he comes out of school again.

I swear this kid was just born to be in the midst of loads of peers with built in rough and tumble.

NB none of my comments should be read in the general sense of talking about HE and it's impact on educational or social opportunities and/or developement. I am only speaking in the most individual of senses, me, my family, my son, where we live and how the immediate culture around us is.

[fastweb]

thought I had done a fabby job of the social side for two years

sorry typo

one of millions actually

[AKMD]

Move the MIL to the UK

I would be looking at HE very seriously. An 11 year-old boy will of course choose ditching schoolwork and hanging out with his friends if he has the option, but you are the parent and have a longer-term view. Pile him into as many afternoon activities with his friends as you possibly can if needs be, turn your home into the ultimate well-stocked hangout for pre-teen boys, organise the car pools - social is more than do-able.

[readsalotgirl]

It does sound as if he really wants or feels the need for the social aspect of school. Am I right in thinking your concern is that he will focus on the social aspect of school and feel that as long as that is fine the academic side doesn't matter whereas you (being older and much much wiser) know that the academic side is as (if not more) important. Also that this attitude will produce a decline in academic attainment which will be difficult to reverse ? My sisters kids did struggle through and one is now at university and the other is about to start.( I'm not sure my niece has the right attitude to make the most of higher education but that's a whole other discussion.) What I'm trying to say is keeping your son in school might be best for him while very hard work for you but the academic freefall you fear may not happen, he may well improve at dictation/regurgitation and this may be a short(ish) term difficulty that he will overcome. Does he have any career ambitions or any idea of what he wants to do workwise which may help him focus on what he needs to achieve in school and which may help you decide what the best course of action is. Would it be possible for him to study by distance learning for example. Often as parents we get very hung up on doing well at school and forget that education is an ongoing process and that it is never too late to acquire academic qualifications - altho I know it's much easier do do things in the conventional way and timescale.

[fastweb]

Move the MIL to the UK

LOL, you'd all be clubbing together for a sleasyjet group booking to boot us out of the country within a week.

The woman is a force of nature.

And unfortunatly very unwell.

But nothing that will impeed her cunning plan to outlive me just long enough to dance on my grave.

[fastweb]

readsalotgirl

You've hit more than a few nails on the head.

His sole ambition is to be a YuGiOh champion.

His back up plan is to be a Pokemon Master, or similar.

I just want him to be in a postion to access some kind of higher ed experience out of Italy, I'd prefer uni, but really....anything would do. Just to open his eyes to the possibilites beyond the tiny corner of the world that he knows.

I don't want him ending up working for DH just becuase that is the default.

[noblegiraffe]

Aww thanks fastweb, for the lovely use of set notation

The problem with this dictation malarkey, is that even if he masters it, he is still being sold a lemon educationally.

Learning to write down accurately what you are hearing is not understanding what is being said. Neither is memorising and regurgitating quotes. It is useless at teaching him how to think for himself, come up with his own opinions and present them logically. He is not having the opportunity to collaborate with others and discuss the work to improve his understanding. He is not even going to have a chance to ask his teacher questions about what he's saying as he'll be too busy trying to write it all down.

Why would anyone need teacher training to spend their lessons reading stuff out loud? What a waste of their qualifications when they could be discussing and improving understanding.

[Bonsoir]

Very honestly, and very truthfully, having "been through it" myself, IYSWIM, I think that the ability to take fast longhand dictation accurately is such a critical key success factor of the dictation/memorisation/regurgitation school system that I would sacrifice one of your son's extra-curricular activities for the time being and have him taught to write better and faster by a professional tutor in one-to-one lessons.

If this were my child, this is what I would do.

I don't believe in the value of the system, but if your child is in such a system he needs the skills to succeed within it.

[fastweb]

Why would anyone need teacher training

Until not so long ago teacher training was "following" a teacher for 12 weeks.

And you didn't need a degree.

New teachers (who are mostly without a job) are qualified graduates.

But the bulk of postions are filled by teachers who got their post when the older systems were in place.

And it is almost impossible to fire anybody for doing Very Bad Things, let alone not being a great teacher, so there is not alot of movement in term of availble positions.

Plus the reforms mean natural wastage will be used to shrink the (seriously mammoth - low teacher/student ratio here, my son's class is 20 kids, there are five classes per year) workforce, so even less chance of new blood getting in.

[fastweb]

I don't believe in the value of the system, but if your child is in such a system he needs the skills to succeed within it.

I think you are right, there doesn't seem to be any other way around it.

If you hear a howl from this side of the alps, it's my son in outrage that I'm cutting his precious youth club once a week.