to think that this is not a suitable punishment for stabbing another child at school...

[ballstoit]

A Year 6 child at the junior school my DS is due to go to in September stabbed another child in the playground after school with a Stanley knife. He had carried the knife around all day, having brought it in from home and tried to stab the other child's face. The victim put their hand up in defence and was stabbed in the hand, and then the child was restrained by a parent before school staff also intervened.

The punishment, which according to the letter I have received tonight was approved by the police and 'Behaviour Support Team' in the council, is for the child to be kept in at lunchtime for a fortnight. The letter seems to be an attempt to calm the anger that a lot of parents feel about the incident. It doesn't detail the punishment but when I asked my DSs teacher she confirmed that this was the sanction the school had decided on.

AIBU to think this is not enough, and to be seriously concerned about my DS starting at this school in September?

[risingstar]

i dont get that at all, when my dd2 was in year 5- at middle school- a child stabbed another with a pair of compasses deliberately. same child also cut my dds hair with scissors

the second time he was permanently excluded. headteacher said his duty was to ensure the safety of all children in the school

[Birdsgottafly]

My post initially was in reaction to those that felt that he should have been removed immediately, which without knowing the childs needs and availability wouldn't necessarily work, units aren't on stand by waiting for this to happen (as you well know) with the right provision in place. It would be a secure unit which doesn't work for every child as these children (meaning abused, SEN, anger problems etc) usually feel isolated and 'different' from peers already, the aim should be to close that gap. That takes time and investigation.

[Peachy]

I'm glad you are not anti SNU birds, we have had that on here before. IME (a fair bit, professionally and family) some kids thrive in MS, some kids don't and the best solution is always reached by looking at the child as an individual. Well you know that I am sure. DS3 was in a small school but even then the number of kids had him cowering in corners.

I suppose I am a little suspicious that a school that is lenient over aggression is one that wouldn;t pick up on SN very well either (again through experience). But who knows eh? Happy wella djusted kids do not as a rule do this sort of thing so without knowing lots it is impossible to judge beyond the level of advocaitng safeguarding for all, victim and perp.

[TandB]

The problem with situations like this is that people simply don't know what is going on behind the scenes. It is all very well to get up petitions and demand information, but an awful lot of things that happen in situations like this are confidential for very good reasons.

The YOT team could be involved, or the local police in terms of a triage intervention (special work around the offence/victim's feelings etc). Social services may be in the middle of taking action.

The school is hardly going to issue a newsletter outlining all the personal details of the attacker and his family circumstances, particularly to parents whose children don't even attend the school yet.

[cory]

Personally, I would feel a lot safer, both for myself and my dcs, if this child was kept under close supervision at school and intervention put in place, than if he was left to wander around the local community and gradually slip into more and more anti-social behaviour.

[Birdsgottafly]

Peachy- two of my DC's have done well in units (SN), my other one attended briefly after the death of my DH when she was changing schools, i know how units perform. Research is showing that the best place for non SN (which isn't established in this case) is good provision in the community and school for primary aged children. To move a child on one instance would be a knee jerk reaction, which would not work without knowing background, which some are suggesting. My work brings me into daily contact with violent children, it takes a investigation to decide on best provision and varies greatly from area to area.

[Peachy]

Good post fairydoll.

Birds- units work in some form for many children: the key is identifying which kids and then ensuring the provision is included within the community to the maximum possible (so potentially less for severely autistic children than those with a PD though that would vary) and MS is utilised where possible. Both my dx'd boys attend SN Bases within MS provision and I can only rave about those, even though ds3 only accesses the MS lessons for DT and PE he still meets children at lunchtime, sahres assemblies etc.

[fairydoll]

'kid taking a knife into school with the clear intention of hurting someone is a shitbag'
But imagine a situation where a child has been bullied day in day out for years and breaking point has been reached.One particular child in this cicumstance might hang himself.There would be an outcry, the bully villified and parents would be baying for his blood.Another child in the same situation might take a knife to school with the idea of defending himself.Suddenly ,because he has had a nick in his face the bully is a poor helpless victim and the parents baying for the boy's blood.
You really have to consider there is probably a whole lot more to the incident that meets the eye.

[Birdsgottafly]

alstron- you are condemming the child after one incident. An older child would be excluded but when (as itt used to be) we used to remove primary children into units it didn't work they found it very difficult to then settle back into mainstream and missed out educationally and socially. The children themselves saw themselves as set apart from their peers which didn't help anyone in the long run. The child has learned to piuck up a knife from somewhere, children learn behaviour from their environment that certainly doesn't make them a shitbag and labeling a child that young is ridiculous.

[Peachy]

Plus, the child themselves is being let down if they are not in a placement where they can get help.

The only winner is whoever doesn't have to do the exclusion / sattementing paperwork.

[alistron1]

And I'm not of the 'lock 'em up and throw away the key brigade'...but a line needs to be drawn and a kid doing this sort of stuff should not remain in a mainstream setting.

I'm scratching my head as to what a kid needs to do in order to be excluded from school nowadays.

Obviously young people doing this sort of thing need intensive behaviourial support etc...but it does not mean that they should remain in the setting where they carried out the offence.

It makes a mockery of safeguarding.

[Peachy]

Perhaps

But it is worth bothering because he is my baby and I think- know- he has potential when we find the key. He's a bright, talented small boy who luckily has a talent he can employ from home to earn and we will find a solution. I hope.

[alistron1]

I didn't call your kid a shitbag peachy. But a kid taking a knife into school with the clear intention of hurting someone is a shitbag regardless of circumstances.

[Birdsgottafly]

Peachy- i wouldn't bother, she is of the 'lock em up an throw away the key' brigade. Which very nicely highlights why it isn't always worth telling other parents what is actually happening, they wouldn't get it or have anything worthwhile to contribute.

[Peachy]

but although DS1 is a risk, he is not a shitbag alistron. he in autistic child who lucked massively fdevelopmentally. Doesn;t mean he can get away with it, but does not make him a shitbag either.

[Peachy]

I should perhaps emphasise that I have managed to get ds1 a specialist palcement in an ASD unit from September with 1-1 support in all MS areas, and 1-2 in the base. Just in case anyone thinks I am allowing him to put others at risk. I also managed to get him 1-1 iin his MS setting until then and his TA is more than able to manage him. I would nto allow him to be a risk: many chidlren with behavioural issues are the rsult of terrible aprents but with SN you will often find the ones yelling for help are the parents of the child.

[Peachy]

Isitreally if you read my first post on the thread you will note I agree with you: I would have happily seen ds1 excluded, I suggesyted a 'lunchtime' exclusion long term but they woudl not have it.

I agree Sn is not mentioned in OP- my last post kinda led from my first, sorry.

sausages- normal child????? Bit of a contentoious term that. Besides, most abnormal; kids don;t behave like that either- only one of my 4 SEn kids does.

trouble with straight-SNU palcements is they go to where there are even more vulnerable children: ds3 (passive autism) is in a class with a very violent dangerous child whose aprents refuse to accept he ahs SEN and agree a properly funded palcement. DS3, when anxious, loses the ability to speak so cannot ask for help when in danger. there should be specilaist placements for kids like ds1 that can manage special needs but are focussed on the dangerous kids. Not EBD units with kids who come from gang culture etc as they present a different risk to the SN child, I would probably think something within the CAMHs system would be better.

Locally, there is no CAMHs system for ASD. We took ds1 to eating disorder therapy at CAMHs, they asked me what to do.

[alistron1]

I don't care what the mitigating circumstances are (eg SEN)...a kid carrying a stanley knife around and trying to stab another pupil with it should be excluded permanently. Keeping him in a lunchtime wtf?

There is too much appeasement in schools at the moment, not 'punishing' kids for really bad behaviour because of their home lives, or their 'needs'.

If I snapped at work and slashed someone with a stanley knife no one would be saying 'oh, she's exhausted and stressed and the victim might have been mean to her in the past, let's confine her to the staffroom for a month' I'd be banged up. And quite rightly too.

Ridiculous.

Other children (and staff) deserve to be protected from shitbags taking knives into school.

[sausagesandmarmelade]

My concern is for the victim here..
To have been attacked by another child and have to face seeing that child every day. Who knows the emotional trauma that child may face...

OP I would not send any child of mine to that school...and I would tell the education authorities why.

[sausagesandmarmelade]

sausagesandmarmelade, how would you feel if the child was moved to your children's school?

Removing him from mainstream education (which is what I said in my post) would ensure he wasn't in contact with other children....any other children!

the law says that all children must go to school
That's rubbish.... How come so many children are home taught then?

Absolutely...no normal child would behave as this one has...which is why he should not be in mainstream education until he is deamed safe to do so. In the meantime the authorities need to find out why he behaved the way that he did...and get to the root of the problem.

[bigTillyMint]

Peachy, yes PRU's are not the place for identified (or identifiable) SEN, yet we have lots of statemented children as there are not enough special school places to go around

Having said that, we do our very best to meet their needs, and make an outstanding job of it

I agree about the keyworker / learning mentor/ inschool suport, but in our bourough, I would be amazed if there wasn't at least a fixed-term exclusion too.

[Peachy]

Essential

educational options for children with SN that that are easy to access- the 38 kids refused a palce at ds's school should ahve been able to access a decent provision but can't, it's the only ASD specific one in the county. I mean, 2 places per annum for a county with a city in? really? DS3 was non verbal and in nappies and it still took a total of around 2 years before we could move him to a decent provision. In his case he was at risk but the system is the same per child and as my tutor at uni (MA ASD) keeps saying: inclusion menas there being somewhere for every child to go that suits them; not just SNUs for those with severe SN, MS for the rest and nothing for anyone in between.

On a wider level I'd like to be offered aggression training but they don't to kids with AS locally (restraining etc). I'd like to be able to ask for soem occasional respite without being told that if we apply some other family will lose out who probably can;t shout as loud as me. I'd like there to eb some kind of emergency support for if DH si away where I could call and say ds1 is heading for meltdown as we have spent too many hours with the siblings locked in the bathroom for safety.

Actually sibling support is soemthing missing. i'd have run a group myself (was trying to) but there's no one eprson you can go to for help, just a list of people to apply to. I can mange an evening a week, but not endless meetings with people who want me to travel to different copunties to discuss my ideas and then just point me to someone else.

But it's univerally recognised there is nothing bar emergency support available any more. And then only for the more highly educated fighters. The post 16 services dept ehre offers proper help to people whoa re abusive towards their child or terminally ill.

[EssentialFattyAcid]

fab "I would be removing my children from a school which allowed an attacker to stay in school."

I know where you are coming from, but I was in a similar situation and tried instead to address it with the school. I chose to leave my child at risk because I had no faith that other schools would be different. It is the SYSTEM that is at fault. It serves neither the children with aggression problems nor the rest of the children - it is not fit for purpose and we should be petitioning the government.

I am all for Riven's nappyhead protest on Whitehall and would do it again for this cause. I am generally pro inclusion (although I think parents of SN children should have decent options to make their choices from) but inclusion should never be at the endangerment of safety. There are too many LSAs who have insufficient training, insufficient specialist knowledge and inappropriately low pay supporting SEN children. Society pays the cost of this.

Peachy, you sound as though you are unimpressed by the support on offer, what is it that would be better?

[TheOriginalFAB]

I would be removing my children from a school which allowed an attacker to stay in school.

The child who did it will have left when your other child starts school but I know that doesn't really help your emotions.