to disagree with the Independent's Class "Exclusive"

[JemimaMop]

Here

Apparently 70% of us now claim to be middle class, and they have identified six different types of MC people. They include (full descriptions are on the link above):

Squeezed Strugglers
Bargain Hunters
Daily Mail Disciplinarians
Comfortable Greens
Deserving Downtimers
Urban Networkers

AIBU to think that 70% of us can't be middle class, and that several of these types are rather deluding themselves if they think they are? Or are my perceptions of middle class very out of date?

[SilverScarf]

Yes, being working class definitely seems to have very negative connotations now, compared to years ago.

[ambarth]

I think Ryoko is right about the chav thing leading less people to identify themselves as working class.

[ambarth]

pmsl @"you may have 4 toilets but only one backside"

[mylovelymonster]

My take on class:-
Forgotten class - no jobs or liklihood of one
Working class - those for which working to make a living is a necessity - surely the majority these days? Count myself in this group.
Middle class - Aspirational, pretensions of having risen above general population, keeping up with Joneses types
Upper class - Similar to working class, only more money and houses that have been in the family several generations, and life-membership to 'the season'
cheers!

[SardineQueen]

I think YABU to disagree with them as they made exactly the point in your OP in their articles!

My suspicion is that people like to see themselves in "the middle" and call people they perceive as above them as upper middle and people below as lower middle.

The people to ask, of course, are the aristocracy, the proper upper classes, who would undoubtedly agree that 99% of us "middle classes" are simply a bunch of unremarkable plebs

[GKlimt]

Probably need to ask working/upper class where you are in hierachy - as tends to be exclusive rather than inclusive in the greater definition of 'one's place'

[Ryoko]

I don't think it's a case of delusion.

it's social insults mixed with thoughts of the past.

Working class now = council estates, Chavs etc to many.

In the past working class people tended not to own cars house etc, so people with mortgages tend to think they can't be working class, not realising of course that mortgages where not really around 30+ years ago and you couldn't pay for a car in tiny installments over years etc.

obviously 70% of people is a stupid number it's probably closer to 30% but then what are the official benchmarks used to determined such things and who the hell knows em?.

[manicmuvvaof3]

Eastereggthief and JemimaMop - where I live you tend to find lots of what I'd call middle class people (university lecturers and so on) constantly derinding "middle class" people, attitudes, and activities! Reminds me of being at university in the 80s where the more "working class" you were, the better - again usually children of social workers, teachers etc - what I would call middle class professions . To me, MC is a mix of background, education, attitudes etc not just about income- just like WC, or UC

[eastereggthief]

my dad is from a rural area in ireland and grew up beside the homeplace of sean quinn (sean is worth £3 plus billion, probably a bit less now after the down turn but you get the picture) he is the most unassuming man absolutly no airs or graces and has spent alot of money in the local community.local sporting clubs only had to ask for help and it was given. at his mother's wake a few years back he had no problem lifting a tea towel and drying cups for the tea.

[eastereggthief]

beesimo that was very eloquently put i am going to use that line!

[eastereggthief]

exactly a mum in scotland. hard facts should determine demographic info. i just think people have got it so wrong when it somes to how they regard themselves. the examples you said mean nothing. values like honesty, respect, social responsibility are to be found in people from all areas of society. as i teacher i have taught hardworking, polite children from the poorest families, and then you have the wealthier childrn who are so spoilt and have had no values instilled in them. now i am generalising there. basically its just pure snobbery sometimes

[beesimo]

People think you can buy class you can't, real class is how you carry yourself and how you treat others not what you've got and what your accent is. My DG left school at 12 to go into service and she was the classiest woman I ever met. Its who you are not what you are. As I have said before on MM you might have 4 toilets in your house but you'll only ever have one backside!

[fluffles]

didn't middle class used to have something to do with 'professional' jobs that require a degree or postgraduate degree?

well, now that even an admin assistant needs a 2:1 from a 'good' university, and many many jobs need a masters degree that would surely account for a big increase in 'middle class'.

i work in a job that requires a post graduate degree and i have two pg degrees - so by that measure i think i'd be laughed at if i tried to claim to be working class... though i'd be happy to..

[AMumInScotland]

The thing is, it's only newspapers and Mumsnet where people seem to feel the need to be divided up neatly into working/middle/upper class. People who actually rely on demographic information divide us up in a different way - ABCD and subdivisions, in terms of what types of job we do, rather than "do you own a cafetiere" or "do you send your children to ballet lessons" etc which people think of as indicating what class someone is.

[bigTillyMint]

OK, but what is lamb henry?

[JemimaMop]

I just don't see what is wrong with being working class and why people have to pretend that they aren't?

I am probably MC (or am I just deluded? ) but I am very proud of my WC roots. My great grandmother was born in the workhouse, yet several of her grandchildren studied at Cambridge. There is nothing wrong with having aspirations, but there is also nothing wrong with being proud of the class that you are!

[QueenBathsheba]

Are they deluding themselves or are they being deluded?

I'm off on a T.bag run! be back later. Jemimi, I don't think you worded the OP wrong, you are spot on but sadly the deluded will be along shortly to defend their right to be middle class!

[JemimaMop]

I know several tabloid reading, white van driving builders who will only drink coffee made in a cafetiere

Don't worry easter, I'm not offended. I realise that an obsession with interest in class does tend to be a very English thing.

Fluffles, yes I probably did word the OP badly. Maybe I should have said "AIBU to think that many of the 70% of the population who think that they are MC are probably deluding themselves?"

[QueenBathsheba]

I think it's a huge ploy to make people think they are better off than their forefathers. I think governments and companies look for new ways of defining people and media plays a huge part in how we percieve ourselves.

I agree with Jemima, the strugglers and bargain hunters are clearly working class. It's a trick to out fox the working classes. It's a little like saying that women can stop calling themselves feminist because we are all equal now. Well we are clearly not all eaqual and there's more work to be done.

[eastereggthief]

to me there will always be two classes regardless of how much money you have decent people and then the other type

[eastereggthief]

lol@bathsheba!

[QueenBathsheba]

cafetières ! Can't quite work out why this should define class. I have a friend (I love her to bits) who's DH has never worked and they struggle to buy T.bags but they own a cafetière. She'll be thrilled to discover she can join the middle class.

[eastereggthief]

sorry jemima i hope i didn't offend you
but yes you are right it must be about self perception. why do so many people want to be classed as middle class

[JemimaMop]

I'm not English BTW

I agree with you Bathsheba. I would personally have put the "Squeezed Strugglers" and "Bargain Hunters" into the working class category. "Daily Mail Disciplinarians" are possibly Lower MC.

But then I suppose it is all about self perception.

[fluffles]

it's a survey, they asked people what they feel they are and 70% said they felt they were middle class. you can't disagree with that.

so yes, YABU to disagree with the independent.

and why can't you have 70% 'middle class'? there's nothing in the definition of class that says that one can't be the majority.. for a long time we had a huge majority of working class and a few aristos but again, nothing in the definition means it has to be that way.