Horrible row with dh :-(

[littlepigshavebigears]

I know I am at least partially in the wrong here

basically I feel that dh shouts at the kids too much and for the wrong things

he shouts at them for what I consider quite routine and normal brotherly joshing, because he thinks it will escalate and they will upset each other, or they will do it to other children and go too far and get into trouble

ds2 HAS gone too far with teasing and upset another child (he's 6) and we took it very seriously, made him apologise and he was very contrite

but I just think dh i9s overzealous - for example he bawled at them this morning because ds1 was gently tugging ds2's pony tail, he was sat on the sofa with ds2 leaning back into his lap sitting on the floor and they were gently teasing each other, ds1 was saying "this is your handle, ding dong" and they were both giggling

dh shrieked at them to stop it. I sent the boys to get their coats and then told dh I thought he was wrong to stop them from gentle play-acting (which I should NOT have done, I should have left it until later so the boys were unaware )

his view is that all behaviour of this sort needs stamping out because they will go too far and get into trouble (apparently they were told off at afterschool club the other day because ds2 hit ds1 on the arm after he pushed in front of him in the snack queue)

my view is that a certain amount of play fighting and joshing is inevitable between two brothers close in age, it is healthy, and what we should be doing is teaching them the difference between that and actual unkindness (which I think they know the difference anyway). Surely sometimes as brothers they WILL go too far and upset each other, but we don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water and stop them from doing what all brothers do? DH shouts at them for low-level "ner ner" type behaviour when they beat each other on the Wii as well because he thinks if we stamp it all out, then they will not go too far and upset somebody

it all ended very unpleasantly with me saying "maybe we should just have a three foot rule then fgs" and him stomping out - he is quite rightly upset in part because I tackled him while the boys were still in earshot but also he deeply disagrees with me, and I foresee more conflict over it

who is right? I can take it if you all say I am an arsehole

[scottishmummy]

playfighting is a sequential developmental milestone.that teaches and reinforces boundaries,safe exploration of physical and emotional strength. Naturally it needs to be monitored for times it will cross the line,but playfighting and teasing are essential and exploratory ways of developing.and in most cases overall safe

of course i am aware it can and does cross lines

now soemeone is going to tell us how their siblings tried to drown them or commit some other henious act

[diddl]

"Our parents weren't forever intervening at home and telling us off, but they did make it clear that while there were things we could get away with at home, we were to behave appropriately when out of the house"

Same here-and with my children-although we´ve never explicitly told them to behave differently.

Maybe it´s only fun when you´re winding up your own parents

[dickiedavisthunderthighs]

For the ponytail judgers - has it occurred to you that OP might be Sikh?

[RevoltingPeasant]

I also have to ask diddl why are you so opposed to touching hair?

You said you disliked hairpulling - I mean, if it's yanking and hurting, fine. But the OP said her DS1 was 'gently tugging' and they were both giggling. In those circs would you really tell your DC they couldn't touch each other and if so, why?

[BettyCash]

Sit down and ahve this conversation again when you're both calm. You need to agree on a solution and that wasn't the time to find it.

[bringmethestrongestcheese]

I consulted a family psychaiatrist once about something similar. Interestingly, she said that as the DC get older you need to teach each of them how to stand up to bullying behaviour rather than intervene all the time as you cannot always be there. But she also said, don't allow the bullying...so stop it but in a way that helps DS2 to see how he could do it himself. So, I dunno, when DS1 pulls his ponytail, DS2 could learn to say "Please stop that. It hurts. You wouldn't like it if someone pulled your hair, would you?" So as a halfway house I suppose you or DH could intervene with "DS1, do you think your brother enjoys that game, or not? Please stop that now as you wouldn't like anyone doing it to you. It makes your mother and me unhappy to see you not being nice to one another. DS2, it is okay to tell DS1 that hairpulling annoys you, if it does, and that he shouldn't do it."

Bawling at them both won't really help IMO, but I am with your DH in wanting to mark that the behaviour is unacceptable. And in answer to your question, no, I don't think fraternal fighting is "just to be expected"...I think you have to teach your sons that NO fighting is acceptable. Mind you, if they are both giggling and DS2 seems genuinely to be content with the situation (rather than intimidated into accepting it) then that is not exactly fighting....

[diddl]

I´m not opposed to touching hair.

I hate having my hair pulled & would probably intervene immediately rather than waiting to see if it escalated.

Asking children not to pull a ponytail is hardly asking them not to touch each other, is it?

[Xenia]

Someimtes I feel more like a grandparent than parent in terms of experience ( on to second lot of chidlren, oldest 26 etc) and the more I go on the more I think don't sweat the small stuff and if in doubt say now't. Have very clear rules but not very many and be consistent and stick to them (hard if you're a couple with very different views of course).

If siblings didn't fight they would be weird children and children sitting perfectly still etc could even mean parental abuse. I think it's best not to shout at children. Not always easy but best.

I think we all have to decide when a fight or teasing gets so bad a parent needs to intervene but I don't think what was described here needed intervention. Much more important though is how the couple are with each other as if they're happy and everyone is in a jolly atmosphere at home it doesn't much matter if you're strict or not strict or only strict on some things (the latter being my position) as it will all work.

Next time secretly video him on your phone and then once the children are in bed play it on a PC and make him watch it. That will make him stop going over the top about silly things.

[diddl]

I think it´s also difficult when you see the older one playing such games with a younger one.

Sometimes it´s hard not to feel defensive towards the younger-even if they are/appear to be OK with it.

[MrsH75]

I think generally you're right - if you shout at them for nothing then when they have really done something, where do you go?

I know everyone yells in exasperation at times - I certainly do - but try not to.

Also it's really important to praise them - often -when they are being good.

[suzikettles]

I'd echo those who ask if he had an older brother who was hard on him.

We only have one child but dh has spoken before about being worried that he'd be too hard on an older sibling and see bullying when there was none because he was beaten black and blue/had his posessions taken & broken and generally tormented by his brother for most of his childhood and early teenage years. They don't speak now.

[positivesteps]

I think you are more UR because the boys have already been in bother by teasing another child. You obviously aren't being strong enough with them and it needs stamping out now rather than it getting out of hand. I think your husband is just trying to parent them and tell them what is right and wrong. To undermine in in front of the kids is UR you need to be on same page parenting wise.
Yes I understand kids have scuffles between one another but when it moves on to bullying other kids you need to get tougher with them. The harmless joshing as you call it is obviously being taken too far.

[littlepigshavebigears]

I think it is odd, and rude, of people to make negative remarks about my son't hair btw - really rude

and I doubt dh's misgivings have anything to do with suppressed feelings about ds2's masculinity being eroded by his having long hair as dh has a two foot pony tail himself

but thanks for the advice, it has been very helpful

[softpaw]

little pig,i have 3 daughters,close in age..i found that they only really acted up,fought,when we were there to witness the battles.
without an audience,it all seemed to stop.
same at other peoples houses,
children crave any attention..encourage good stuff,and ignore crap x

[Joolyjoolyjoo]

I used to be good at letting them get on with it, but in the last few weeks my children's behaviour towards one another has gotten worse and worse, and they end up all coming whining to me with their side of the story in that awful whingy voice that sets my teeth on edge, so I'm afraid tonight I did exactly what your DH did- I snapped at the first incident I had actually just picked the older dc up from school, and just asked them to try not to fight when 2 seconds later the girls were squabbling over something really stupid and I lost the plot

So I guess it depends how often it does escalate, and how often it ends in tears, despite starting with giggles, as to whether your DH is BU.

I was similarly OTT last night, when I ranted at dd1 after yet another incident where we were right and she was wrong (it was about a bloody coat hanger, fgs!) but she was going to argue on and on. Now, in the grand scheme of things it wasn't anything major, but I just couldn't stand the constant "no I didn't! No it's not!" and I ranted while DH looked on like a was a loon. Give him his due, he said nothing, packed me off to MN while he did the baths, then later mentioned that I had been a bit OTT, by which point I had calmed down enough to agree- had he mentioned it to me there and then, the said coathanger may have found its way somewhere unmentionable...

[softpaw]

first thing i say,is stop whining,crying,..if you have something to say,speak to me..this works even with really little ones.children crave order and leadership.
men come into what looks like an emotional battlefield and it's not surprising that they think we are loons.
give him a whole day..a whole day,by himself with them..could be a whole new perspective

[littlepigshavebigears]

if either child had been even remotely disconcerted by what was happening, I would have nipped it in the bud - I am pretty good at that

but they were playing - I actually thought it was rather lovely, ds2 leaning back onto ds1's knees and the two of them chuckling together

but it is very difficult to put this sort of thing across online

we have just had another brief spat because ds1 tried to take some of my drink without asking me first and I held onto it and raised my eyebrows, waiting for him to ask nicely - cue dh over my shoulder lecturing ds1 about taking things without asking and "you're not having any now"

I was handling just fine, thanks!

I have only been through the door a few minutes

I feel an early night coming on.

[Niecie]

littlepigs - I thought you made it sound like a nice moment not one that required any input whatsoever.

Has your DH always been like this or has it got worse recently, perhaps since your DS was told off at school or for the teasing. He sounds super sensitive.

He also sounds like he doesn't trust you - it was your drink. He shouldn't have waded in. It does sound like you are going to have to talk to him and point out that you are just as capable of handling your boys even if you disagree on some things. He has to let you get on with it and not undermine you, especially as he took such offense at being undermined himself.

[BabyDubsEverywhere]

I think your DH sounds miserable and overbearing, and thats the atmospherrrrrrr he would create if you let him...just how the op reads to me.

[BabyDubsEverywhere]

dont quite know what happend there? sorry

[Glitterknickaz]

wtf is wrong with boys with long hair?!?!?!

[RevoltingPeasant]

BabyDubs I agree.

I still totally do not get the big deal about DS1 touching DS2's hair. It seemed like a lovely moment to me too. I don't get why two siblings who sound close can't amuse themselves together without being jumped on It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't like 'having their hair' pulled if the DC in question doesn't mind!

It does sound like your DH is projecting his own issues: does he have siblings OP? I think a couple of peopel have mentioned that....

[SmashingNarcissistsMirrors]

by shouting at a child you are merely teaching them that shouting is a good / acceptable way to control the behaviour of another person. why be surprised then when they start to copy such behaviour?

it's sort of like the smacking issue but a verbal version. if abusive methods of control are used by parents they will be learnt / copied by the child.

[diddl]

"It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't like 'having their hair' pulled if the DC in question doesn't mind!"

I assume that that is directed at me.

Sometimes when you don´t like something yourself it´s hard not to step in to prevent it-although admittedly in this case only potentially-happening to someone else.

Having now read about the drink incident though, OPs husband does sound overly controlling.

[Xenia]

I agree with Mrs H about praise, though. Try to say 5 positive things for every negative. It's amazingly hard if you're in a negative cycle but very good for people to try. Don't phrase the positives negatively either. This works on spouses as well as children.