Kinesiology - discussion

[Acekicker]

Suggest we discuss it here, rather than hijack allergycakeicing's thread...

Emily - for what it's worth. I have read about it. As I stated in my post I've read studies by the BMJ, assessments by NICE and articles by the Anaphylaxis Campaign. Plus websites by Kinesiologists explaining how they would allegedly 'cure' my child.

I am not being neglectful by refusing to send my child to a Kinesiologist. I'm delighted that you feel it's helped you and your child but it's not for me because I believe in science and empirical medical studies.

It's interesting to note that at least one website that deals with kinesiology to treat allergies, openly admits that it is not basing it on the medical definition of allergy. My son's risk of anaphylaxis if he eats nuts has sod all to do with his 'BioEnergy' system - it's a medically diagnosed, immune response that has solid medical science supporting it.

By all means tell people about the success of your child through kinesiology. It would however be helpful if a) you refrained from suggesting that those of us who won't try kinesiology are borderline neglectful in caring for our children and b) you actually explained a bit more about what allergies your child had, what the kinesiologist did, how the treatment worked etc. How you confirm the treatment had been successful etc.

You keep ordering us all to stop being sheep and find out more and yet you're not exactly being forthcoming with any helpful information - instead you're just slagging off those of us who think differently.

[eragon]

I am quite concerned about the remaining food you have kept out of your daughters diet. (unless i have read your post incorrectly)

have you ever thought of having some skin prick tests to confirm the outgrowing of nuts? am concerned as the rash from eating apples does point to oral allergy syndrome, and this can have a wide rainbow of severity.

often , as you may well know oas is linked to tree pollen allergy, is this a problem for your child? and if it is how to you control it?

I do not agree with kinesology in any form, or homeopathy. however am and have used other methods of alternative therapies.
i have often thought of forming a petition and marching to number 10 to get kineseology banned.

often these people mean well, but they are not safe places for those with young children, often removing whole food groups from a childs diet , without giving a safe nutritional diet plan.
rickets in children do appear in allergy clinics after parents have followed such poor diet plans.

they are not well regulated enough to provide a safe alternative for everybody. one death in ireland is enough quite frankly.


I may not be always happy with the nhs care we have recieved, but at least any food challenge is in a hosptial setting , and is quite safe.

my son had ezcema day 10 after birth, and showed all the signs of classic food allergy. he had almost daily hives until he turned 4-5, and eczema improved after that point. this is the common pattern for atopic march children. the increase of severity of environmental allergies at that time,was part of that march.
my son is a life long allergic child. if there was a safe cure, i would jump at the chance. magic wands do not exist.


i wish you the best and hope that your child never , ever has any allergic reaction. i wouldnt wish that on anyone.

[Acekicker]

I have to agree with Pixie - now you've provided more detail about your daughter I'm still delighted that she has improved. However her situation was not comparable to that of the poster to whom you were recommending kinesiology. I stand by what I said originally - I don't agree with recommending kinesiology as a treatment for life-threatening allergies - it is dangerous to do so.

Interesting to note as well that after all your petty mud-slinging about my child and how neglectful I am it transpires that your child and mine are in exactly the same position in that neither can eat nuts - where the hell did your hypocrisy come from?

Your (alleged) parting shot, shows your true colours I think - a very anti-established medicine agenda geared up towards trying to make those of us who do use the NHS feel like we're second best. Scaremongering and sarcasm - very supportive .

It also helps to know your audience - your position all along towards me has been an assumption that I'm a bad mother, my child is suffering ill health through my neglect and that I'm anti-complementary medicine. If you review my posts on MN you'll see I used an osteopath 20 years ago - back when you claimed it wasn't mainstream, rejected by the NHS etc. It was the appropriate treatment for me at the time (and undertaken with the support of my othopaedic consultant) and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it again to someone if appropraite to their circumstance.

The difference is, there is science and medical evidence behind what the osteopath did in that case, there's none of that behind kinesiology and there still won't be 20 years from now; however more importantly the osteopathy didn't put my life in danger, kinesiology for a child in the situation the OP presented could have been fatal.

[emilyishere]

Oh, and I notice you have ignored AimingForSerinity post. Of course. It made sense.

[emilyishere]

Oh I understand now. Your last post Pixie helps me to see your true colours. My dd was not really ill, I went to a "quack" (implying I am irresponsible - thanks) and she "seems" to be better.

She grew out of it (seeing as you all know best). Yeah, she grew out of it. I'm just a thick mother who hasn't got a clue. Thanks.

However, seeing as you don't actually know me, your innate knowlege of me and my dd are interesting.

"I can see why you tried it". No you don't!!!!

Well I shall bite my tongue after this post, leave you all intelligent, caring, lovely people to jump to conclusions and continue to think doctors are perfect, whilst pulling a parent's views apart.

Farewell lovelies. Enjoy the hospital clinics, and waiting rooms (they're full of GERMS you know, isn't it dangerous???).

[emilyishere]

"However in essence, all your therapist did was to ask you to cut out sugar. I really can't see how this could have magically cleared up all her other allergies"

I did not say that's all she did, to cut out sugar. Arghhh.. Give up.

[emilyishere]

Why are you biting your tongue? And for the record, had you seen my dd with her whole body covered in eczema and urticaria every day, how can she grow out of it all in nine short months? It does make me cross that I am simply not believed.

Thank you aimingforserenity - a well balanced post (I can't seem to manage well balanced posts, I get too heated for my sins) but I like common sense.

[MsScarlett]

I'm really glad your dd got better Emily. However in essence, all your therapist did was to ask you to cut out sugar. I really can't see how this could have magically cleared up all her other allergies (which were all identified by yourself and the NHS)? Anyway, glad to hear she is better.

My dd had lactose intolerance and couldn't even have my bm without screaming in agony/green diarhoea/eczema etc. She was on colief for breastfeeds and EBM, or lactose free formula. I trialled her occasionally on a breastfeed without the colief and she reacted badly, and she couldn't tolerate normal formula, even treated with colief as apparently cows milk has more lactose so it didn't break it all down. It was thought she may have a CMP allergy, but she took lactose free cow's milk formula so well that this clearly wasn't the case. So, she was definitely lactose intolerant and was diagnosed.

However she is now 14 weeks and I am now EBF without even needing to use colief. She has completely grown out of it very suddenly. Her digestive system has clearly now reached the stage where it can handle the lactose i.e. it is producing enough lactase.

I was told when it was suspected that my dd had cmp allergy that it is something that they often grow out of as toddlers.

Another example, I had such severe and frequent migraines a few years back, I had one every day for around 6 months and then frequently for several months more. I saw several specialists, tried several drugs and nothing worked. I sympathise with you in that I was so desperate that I tried alternatives. Acupuncture, kinesiology and I tried my own elimination diets etc. Nothing worked. Then one day I just gave up trying. And they just went. I personally think it's because I stopped worrying and resigned myself! Anyway, I see what you're saying that sometimes modern medicine can't do the trick, but in my case alternative therapies didn't either. But, if I had just happened to have tried one just before they went on their own, I'd have credited that therapy with getting rid of them IYSWIM?

Anyway glad your dd is well.

[nellymoo]

Lovely post Greenbananas.

But for all the rest, am sitting on my hands and biting my tongue.

Emily, it is perfectly possible that your DD grew out of her egg and CMP allergy by the age of 3/4.

[AimingForSerenity]

I think there is a place for all treatments used sensibly.

I have been a qualified healthcare professional for 30years now (don't want to be too specific and out myself in RL) and some years back became concerned at how often the treatments we give to patients are merely suppressing symptoms e.g. the body develops a pain so we give a painkiller rather than find why it hurts and target the cause. I became intrigued by complementary health and how it may help.

I did an accredited diploma course, learned a lot and could now, if I wished, work as a complementary practitioner although I currently choose not to and still work in the NHS.

I think the key here is the word COMPLEMENTARY. I would never choose these treatments as first line above evidence-based, proven western medicine but have no problem at all with patients chosing to explore other options to give them more control over their illnesses and, if it works that's great. I have seen positive results that I cannot explain and think we have to be very careful about dismissing "unproven" therapies out of hand.

I do, however, have serious concerns about the education, qualification and claims made by some practitioners. There was a wide range of people (both in terms of education and experience) on the course I studied, sadly it was often those who were least aware of the limitations of their abilities who made the greatest claims, often to the point of being dangerous IMO

[emilyishere]

I agree with almost everthing you say greenbananas. I have never said that I would turn away from the doctors. And some so called therapists, are truly dangerous. They are charlatans or believe they are doing God's work in some way and are deluded. How do you know who to choose? Well, I do expect parents to have some sort of common sense about them - I would not expect anyone to suggest giving a child (or adult) the very thing they are allergic to, that would need to be done in hospital. My dd story demonstrates that, with personal recommendation and with a mother with common sense approach and a therapist with a common sense approach, working alongside medical professionals, results can be good.

Complementary therapy (whatever it is) should work alongside orthodox medicine, never to take its place. To help strengthen the immune system.

However it did not sit well with me that you suggested my dd grew out of her allergies... Please. How can anyone grow out of molluscum in one week? Grow out of allergies in nine months?

I have not read Bad Science, I will certainly get hold of a copy.

[heliumballoons]

Goodness I'm not sure why greenbananas but your post ^^ just made me cry.

[greenbananas]

Emily, thank you for providing more information. I'm really glad your DD is so much better , and I'll admit very freely that I don't understand it. In particular, it's impressive that her molluscum cleared up so quickly. However, as I'm sure you fully understand, one happy success story does not constitute 'evidence' (I know you'll think I'm being picky, but your DD might have been lucky enough to grow out of her allergies, and her molluscum might have been due to clear up anyway).

I'm always interested in other people's point of view, so I'll read the book you've suggested. Have you read 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre? There are some chapters on homeopathy and vitamin supplements etc. that might interest you.

Sadly, I have a much more negative anecdote to relate... a teenaged friend of mine had a (formula-fed) young baby who seemed severely intolerant to dairy, and was fast becoming a very sick little boy. She consulted a kinesiologist who told her that he was 'bovine intolerant'. She was content with this advice, and started feeding him soya formula instead of the usual Cow and Gate. The kinesiologist gave her no advice about hypoallergenic formula, and led her to believe that the NHS would not be able to help her, so when her baby started reacting to the soya formula as well (this is very common in children who have problems with dairy), she started feeling rather desperate. I insisted that she saw an NHS paediatrician, and her baby started to improve as soon as he was given a formula milk which had been specially developed for children with his needs. He is now under the care of a dietitian.

The main reason I have entered into this debate is that mums on these boards often have children with very severe allergies, and they come here for information as well as emotional support. I feel that the information we collectively provide should be of good quality. In most cases, the best recommendation is that they seek help from the NHS (despite its limitations!)Lots of us struggle with people sticking their oar in when they know very little about the issues.

If you want a truly dreadful example of how ignorant but well-meaning people can put allergic children at risk, see eragon's post on the recent 'wet fish' thread. A faith healer offered to pray for her peanut-allergic son and give him a teaspoonful of peanut to demonstrate that he would not react. (FWIW, I am a Christian, and I firmly believe that God can do whatever he chooses - even circumvent the laws of nature - but the horrifying irresponsibility of that faith healer left me gasping in shock!!!)

Again, thank you for answering the questions put to you earlier on this thread. I hope you don't think we are all closed-minded - and that you respect our decisions to follow the best advice that we can get. For me, that still means following the recommendations of the lovely and very clued-up allergy specialist I was eventually able to access for free on the NHS.

[emilyishere]

It wasn't meant to be a contradiction! What I meant was, everyone blindly uses microwaves, phones etc without knowing what the risks to health are, and no one seems bothered about risk. But when thinking about complementary medicine the perceived risk is high in people's mind. The logic about risk is odd, we all drive at 70mph in cars and that seems perfectly fine, but then we are worried about the risk of events where the risks are actually lower, eg flying.

Anyway.

I shall now tell you about my dd story. I shall imagine anyone reading will do so with an open mind!

When my dd was born she seemed very healthy, good weight, no problems. At 6 months of age, within days, her skin started to look dry and raised areas, and within a week, she was covered, head to toe in eczema. Her head was the worst with weeping patches. I was very worried about infection with the weeping. Her GP gave her hydrocortisone for the eczema on her body and told me to use salisylic (spelling?) acid every evening for her head. After a month she was just as bad, so I asked to be referred to a dermatologist. He was shocked about the salysilic acid and said he wouldn't recommend it more than once per week, certainly not every day. Oh dear.

At the same time as all this, it was clear other things were wrong too. I started to wean her (bf upto 6 months) and her nappies stank (sorry) and her eczema was driving her crazy. The dermatologist gave her stronger steroids but the eczema just came back as soon as the steroids were left off, even for a day.

From about the age of one (it's hard to remember exactly) when more foods were introduced, the urticaria started. In the end she was having urticaria every single day, with foods that I couldn't understand would be a problem. She was on piriton every day.

It was clear that she was allergic to milk and egg. I could't work out what she wasn't allergic/intolerant to.

Then I realised that she was allergic to hazelnuts as she was sick and started to wheeze, alongside the urticaria. I didn't actually give her nuts as I would never do this when she was having so much trouble with everything else. Someone gave her fruit and nut chocolate grrr.

We were sent to a doctor at the children's hospital, who did skin prick tests and told us to see the dietician. The dietician basically told us we were doing ok (as I had restricted her diet to foods I knew were ok, but the list was diminishing weekly) but there was enough in her diet not to worry the dietician, but told me to come back if things were getting worse. The doctor (sorry, can't remember his title, but allergy expert) said that she was allergic to tree nuts, peanuts, possibly dust mites, and I can't remember what else) but also milk and egg.

When my dd was 3yo, I had personal recommendation for this complementary therapist who had helped my neighbour. He gave me the details. When I visited the lady, she firstly told me she could clear up my dd's molluscum first (the GP told me the virus would go on its own eventually). The therapist said that the next day after her treatment, my dd would go to the toilet a lot, "have a good clear out!" she said. I was cynical at first, because the therapist hadn't seem to have done much to my dd, hadn't even touched her. Well, my dd was three years old, and the next day she went to the toilet about 12 times, and yes, she cleared herself out. The following week, the molluscum had gone. I thought, there must be something in this!

I went back and she started to work with my dd on her eczema and allergies/intolerances.

After one treatment (one hour) where, again, she didn't actually touch my dd, but put her hands near to my dd tummy, over her head and back.

She told me to cut out sugar from my dd diet for one month. This I did.

At no point did I change my dd diet, I wasn't asked to (except for the sugar). I was not going to introduce foods that were causing reaction.

BUT, within a month, the eczema had just about gone, except for her wrists. After a further month or so, there was no eczema at all.

After about three more months, I noticed that I didn't have to reach for the pirition much, and her bowels were much nicer!

After a total of nine months, my dd had beautiful skin, not even dry. No urticaria. I started to relax her diet slightly by letting her have a little processed food (bread, crisps even) with no reaction. I thought I might try slightly more risky foods such as oranges, or a little milk. She was fine. And so it went on, and I relaxed even more.

Now, to this day, I won't let her have nuts. And for some reason, apples cause a rash. But that is all. She still has beautiful skin and eats anything. She is now 7yo.

There was no risk at any time because I was never asked to introduce foods.

Therefore I can't understand the perceived danger. Her body healed, and then foods could be introduced that were slightly risky (chance of urticaria) which was up to me.

I realise that my dd did not have anaphylaxis, as some poster's children do, but the principle would be the same: no testing, no introduction of risky foods (I just realised she was doing so well with her "good" foods with no reaction to anything). No risk in short. A very gentle therapy.

And I must add, therapy is complementary: never would I say goodbye to orthodox medicine, I just like to do some self-help alongside to strengthen the body's own system. I wasn't actually expecting a "cure", just for her skin to be a bit better, anything to help really.

[Acekicker]

What medical training do you have?

You're not trying to imply by throwing in that reference to your training, that any official medical body in the UK accepts kinesiology as an appropriate treatment for children at risk of anaphylaxis are you?

[Acekicker]

emilyishere I'm still in the dark about what allergies your child had, the severity of them and how the kinesiology worked.

You say you were rudely dismissed. My exact words were:

Kinesieology is not recommended by NICE to totally counter the advice offered by emilyishere I wouldn't dream of going down that route with a child who has severe allergies as there is no recognised empirical science behind AK and you can't just try a few sessions and then start testing your child to see if they have been 'cured' when anaphylaxis is a risk.

All of that is fact. I wasn't rude, by for example calling you a fool or making inflamatory comments about the health of your child, that was you.

You say you don't like the tone of posters suggesting you put your child at risk, I didn't like the tone you used about me and my child much either when you suggested he's unhealthy, can't eat and I'm a neglectful parent and called me a fool.

I'll take your word for it that you didn't put your child in any danger as I know absolutely nothing about the extent and severity of her allergies. What I do know is that going down the kinesiology route could be life-threatening for a child under the care of a specialist who is at risk of anaphylaxis from multiple substances ie the OP to whom you were recommending kinesiology. I felt it was sensible to counter with factual scientific based information. You chose to dismiss that, it's your perogative, just as it's mine to share information I think may be helpful.

Explain to us how kinesiology works - all you've done so far is keep telling us to read a subscription only website (see I did go and look at it) and take your word for it, and carry on hurling insults at anyone with a different viewpoint.

[emilyishere]

Oh, and the fact that all of this thread started because I was telling a poster in good faith of my experiences to HELP and got quite rudely dismissed and so I got cross. I was giving my story to give the poster something to think about, not to be told I was dangerous. I would never do harm to my child.

[emilyishere]

nightcat, it is so refreshing to hear from someone who has an open mind!

What I find annoying in particular, is anyone who instantly dismisses anything unorthodox. Why? It seems people get edgy and worried about something they don't understand. I'm sure most of us don't understand how mobile phones and the internet work, but we use them without knowing if we are subjecting ourselves to a phenomenon to give us cancer etc. Same for microwave ovens. Same for blue tooth, same for aspirin - the med profession actually don't understand how aspirin works, but we trust it!

FWIS my kinesiology lady is trained in engineering and teaching, then embarked on healing because she is good at it, and healed herself before training to heal others. She has children. Why would she want to do harm?

I consulted a therapist for my dd. I want the best for her, not for anyone to do harm. I don't like the tone of some of the posters who imply I consult someone who could harm my dd. I am intelligent and care for my dd and would never put her in a dangerous situation. What I have actually achieved in a dd who no longer has eczema or allergies. She does not wheeze or vomit after eating the wrong thing, and doesn't have to avoid situations to keep her safe. So I have protected her and she has her health back.

Had I posted about acupuncture ten years ago, then I am sure most posters on MN would dismiss it, as they have dismissed kinesiology. Yet now it is in the NHS!!!

And I still urge people to read What Doctors Don't Tell You, to put things into perspective. The medics don't always do what they said on oath, "First Do No Harm" by Hippocrates. Actually just by giving drugs out they do quite a lot of harm with side effects, some of them irreversible.

I do know what I am saying. I am medically trained.

[nightcat]

emily, I am with you, not so much on kinesiology but on open mind generally
Complementary approach has done more for my ds than drs ever had or even ever would. In fact it was b/c there was no treatment I had open ticket to try anything that I felt was worth trying and this approach led us to an awesome place healthwise.
Anyone interested might also read anything by Jan de Vries or Andrew Weil.

[MsScarlett]

Oh and these alternatives are now recognised because there is EVIDENCE, that has been found in properly conducted trials. Acupuncture for example works for pain relief in a similar way to a TENS machine by stimulating certain nerves to distract the brain from interpreting pain signals. So there has been evidence as well as theory backing it up.

How can kinesiology work? It is so ludicrous, and the fact that noone can produce any solid replicable evidence apart from anecdotes is very telling.

[MsScarlett]

Emily - FWIW I am a medical student. I have now completed 2 years of intense education, where I have learnt intricately the physiological processes of the body and where they go wrong in the case of disease processes, including allergy - right down to detailed chemical reactions in cells etc. I have also learnt exactly where and how different drugs and therapies correct these processes. Essentially as so much is understood about their actions you can nearly always predict how a therapy will work, but just to make sure their actions are tested in vitro i.e. when replicated in a lab and in vivo i.e. in the body by doing extensive clinical trials that are heavily scrutinised.

Modern medicine might not have all the answers, but those that it does have are proven with the latest research, and perhaps those questions that it can't answer, simply cannot be answered yet? Certain complementary/alternative therapies are recognised to have some validity e.g. acupuncture, so therapies are not dismissed by the medical establishment for the sake of it, just if there is no evidence that they work or if they may indeed be harmful.

There may be failings in the NHS in providing opportunity to diagnose allergies etc, but that is a separate issue and doesn't mean that potentially dangerous alternatives should be sought IMO.

[PeachyAndTheArghoNauts]

Can't epilepsy also be cured by a ketgenic diet (or rather controlled) in some cases?

There are a lot of alterntaives in my field (autism) and they make me nervous but I have no isues with trying things that pose no risk- such as a well managed diertary plan or vitmain supplementation. however there are also therapies such as chelation that have been implicated in deaths and given the risks of allergies i would place kinesiology firmly in that camp.

I woudln;t chiropracters, know a few people who ahve benefitted and when it's a trained person it's a risk free physical procedure (local GP back home refers direct); homeopathy quackery though.