DD has peed in the cat litter tray

[nothingcomestonothing]

She is nearly 6, home 10 months, toilet trained day and night. She didn't even tell me she'd done it - I went into the downstairs toilet to empty the bin and found the floor wet. I asked her if she'd had an accident, she said yes. Then I realised it was only wet around the litter tray, and the litter tray had waaaay more pee than the cat could do in it. She admits she peed in the litter tray, but says she 'doesn't know why'. She must have done it while I was in the shower earlier. I'm really getting scared she is very disturbed. I've sent DCs out in the garden to play, so I can calm down. Help!

[Italiangreyhound]

nothingcomestonothing I am a new adoptive mum to a boy (almost 4) and a birth mum to a DD (almost 10).

I think a lot of behaviour can be the way that children communicate with us, and some of it is just because they want to do something. Only you will be able to work out in relation to what else is going on whether this is your child sending you a message about how she feels or simply wanting to try out something she has seen the cat do.

For some perspective I would add that my dd is very keen on animals and frequently dresses as a cat/dog, puts her food or water in a bowl and pretends to to a dog/cat but she has never tried to use the cat litter tray (she is older than your dd). The fact other people have said their kids have done this sort of thing is in some ways reassuring, that it is not so unusual, but that does not mean it is not unusual for your dd.

My dd was clean and dry in the daytime by 3 but the Christmas after she turned 3 I left her for a whole day with a friend while I went to a works Christmas do. It was not unusual for dd to be 'left' as she went to nursery, but she was not used to being at a friend's house (my friend who has a dd her age who was her friend). I collected DD and walked into the house and she was wearing the same clothes I dropped her off in, within minutes of walking in the door, possibly seconds, he had wet herself. No big deal, but I really felt it was her sending me a signal, she was not happy to have been left with a friend all day. It made me think about whether it was right to leave dd in that type of situation for a while. That is what I mean about behaviour being children's way of communicating. i am sure you have been told about this in your pre-adoption training.

As you say 'She's got more and more oppositional and aggressive lately' i would see it as part of that and look into ways of helping her generally with attaching and relaxing as part of being at home. I am not sure whether this is a sign she feels at home and relaxed, it might be. I've certainly noticed my little boy is pushing boundaries more and I feel that it can be a sign of being more relaxed and able to be their true selves, but it may also be a way of expressing confusion, uncertainty etc. I would start to look out for any pattern, e.g. I have noticed ds can be a bit more difficult after social workers have visited. I would assume you are still getting visits from social workers (?).

Is there jealousy between your dd and ds or ds and dd? You don't need to say their relative ages etc, unless they were adopted together I am assuring ds is older. In our family it is my birth child who is more jealous and is having a hard time. Sometimes when I am affectionate with ds my dd shows she does not like it and feels a bit 'threatened' by my attachment to ds. I wonder if your dd is jealous of your ds? It's just the ball incident as well as inconveniencing you is also inconveniencing ds!

All these things may be very much a part of 'normal' family life but I do think you are right to consider the adoption aspect and to seek professional help. If your daughter is still a looked after child then social services have a (what's the word) duty of care?? And should provide whatever help is needed to help her settle in.

Good luck.

[Italiangreyhound]

Have just realised there is a whole page i did not see, I thought it was one page only but was two. Sorry OP. I can see you are mentioning jealousy. I will read on. I just wanted to say my reply was really only based on your comments on the first page.

[mrssprout]

Having read your updates since my first post it is sounding more likely that there may be something else going on. I agree that you need to continue to push for any additional help you feel you may need now or in the future. I am not in the UK so our system here will be different but I was told once by a SW here that her case load was so big that the way she prioritised who got dealt with first was by seeing to the person making the most noise. So if she had someone calling a few times a week, emailing all the time & generally being in constant contact she would get them sorted as quickly as she could just to get a bit of quiet to deal with other things. Probably not the most helpful plan but at least she was honest with me. Keep on to people until someone is prepared to help you with what you need. Hope you can get things sorted.

[Italiangreyhound]

I think on the question of non-adopters offering advice, I was one of those people who offered advice, and still do, based on my birth dd, who is dyslexic and has displayed some challenging behaviour. I think that advice can be helpful and can offer suggestions or techniques for 'dealing with' behaviour but if behaviour is communication (as I think it often can be, then it is essential as tethersend says to know a child's history.

[Italiangreyhound]

nothingcomestonothing I am so sorry.

I agree with Devora if you finalise the adoption you will be left to your own devices (my words!).

You said "... so accessing their parents groups is practically difficult and I'm not eligible for any in the LA I live in." Could I ask if your placing authority and the authority you live in could come to some sort of agreement whereby your local authority could provide services or counselling and it be paid for by the placing council? If the placing council provide counselling etc would they provide transport to it. Could you ask for that? The additional cost of providing transport might make them more willing to come to an arrangement with your local authority. Remember to remind them (I am sorry to say this) that your local authority will be picking up the pieces and 'paying' in a few years once 'responsibility' moves to them (is it after two years or three?).

I agree with mrssprout that some social workers may well deal with the loudest people first. If you are so stressed you are emailing and calling all the time and sending calls with 'I will ring in a few days for an update' then that person may well think 'ok let's deal with nothingcomestonothing because then they will be sorted. Do your children still have a social worker? Do they have the same one? My ds is still looked after and he has a social worker and so do we, so there are two people we can turn to if we need to. Is it the same for you?

I think with kids it is important to try and think, where will this go. If I leave this situation, what will happen. Will it get better, stay the same or get worse, how much worse? Situations rarely stay the same (IMHO) some problems just get better, this one does not sound like it will. So how can you get the help you need. Keep a diary of incidents for both ds and dd and if you see the incidences increasing in frequency and severity/stress for you/stress for kids etc then you can tell social services exactly what is happening.

If these things are occurring every few days you can explain the new incidents and explain that this is a new incident, then recap, so as well as this that and the other, now I have this to deal with. But I would actually rephrase it as so now dd and ds have this happening etc so that social services know it is not just you 'suffering' (maybe they feel you are in some ways 'expendable'! But your dd is suffering and is making ds suffer. It is all understandable, their early life maybe made it inevitable . But it may well be changeable, with help [smile.

Anyway, what do I know I am new to all this but I can hear your voice and there is an element of panic, your dd is getting bigger, you have said

She 'tried to break her window with a broom in a temper' (what could have happened if she had done it, could she have been cut, or you or ds or could someone have fallen out of the window!

She '...punches pinches pulls hair etc.' (Yes, all kids might do this, but maybe she does it more, more violently, or maybe you just know she is communicating unresolved distress through this, she is effectively saying , 'help me'.

'She has to win and be first at absolutely everything - will literally push DS down the stairs to get up them first' (that could result in an injury for him, or even for her or both of them!).

If the SW has said '... they won't fund any therapy now ... but she will probably need it 'later'' that sounds like palming you off, is there a medical/therapeutic reason for waiting? Can you find any case studies where waiting was disastrous and threaten them with these?

If CAMHS declined to work with your DD as she didn't meet their threshold - was this a long time in the past, was that before the incidents you mentioned above?

Please do get a local MP or someone who has some power on your side, while you have some degree of time, before you have to go back to work and get that person to work for you. Your local MP should. Adoption is a hot topic with politicians at the moment, it is a lot in the media and it only understandable that you need help.

I sense that you are minimising the problems (no criticism, I think we all do this). It is just that you started with the cat litter tray and then revealed the violence. I think this is a natural protection thing for all of us (to minimise), we want to believe the best of our kids and not to admit to how bad things can be. I felt the same with my dd when she was being very difficult. BUT I feel minimising now will be your enemy, you need all the help you can get now so you will hopefully need less help later.

You must get help. You must convey all this to the placing authority. It is your own decision whether you want to make it sound like the placement may be in jeopardy if you do not get help. Your call. I cannot say what they would do either way. It may be gamble. But will you cope if you do not get help? If there is any doubt in your mind then you need to get that help, and show you can do the job, you can be strong, but you need professional help. (And please do go to GP about IBS, mine was worse and I singled out a couple of fruits and cut them down/out and it has been better BUT I know IBS is vary varied).

If I were in your boat, I would be making someone at the placing authority's life a misery until I got help. Frequent calls, frequent examples of the behaviour and another call to CAMHS.

Good luck. SORRY this is such a long reply!

Please do update us.

[nothingcomestonothing]

Thanks for replies, we're off to the seaside for a week so I'll have no wifi, didn't want people to think I'd disappeared or don't appreciate the posts. Lots to think about, and I know everyone is right we need help, which is scary as I think it'll be a battle. Will see how the week goes, when we've been away before it's taken the pressure off somehow and DDs behaviour has been better but that doesn't fix things I know. Will be back in a week (or sooner if it's a disaster!)