DD has peed in the cat litter tray

[nothingcomestonothing]

She is nearly 6, home 10 months, toilet trained day and night. She didn't even tell me she'd done it - I went into the downstairs toilet to empty the bin and found the floor wet. I asked her if she'd had an accident, she said yes. Then I realised it was only wet around the litter tray, and the litter tray had waaaay more pee than the cat could do in it. She admits she peed in the litter tray, but says she 'doesn't know why'. She must have done it while I was in the shower earlier. I'm really getting scared she is very disturbed. I've sent DCs out in the garden to play, so I can calm down. Help!

[nothingcomestonothing]

Thanks for replies, we're off to the seaside for a week so I'll have no wifi, didn't want people to think I'd disappeared or don't appreciate the posts. Lots to think about, and I know everyone is right we need help, which is scary as I think it'll be a battle. Will see how the week goes, when we've been away before it's taken the pressure off somehow and DDs behaviour has been better but that doesn't fix things I know. Will be back in a week (or sooner if it's a disaster!)

[Italiangreyhound]

nothingcomestonothing I am so sorry.

I agree with Devora if you finalise the adoption you will be left to your own devices (my words!).

You said "... so accessing their parents groups is practically difficult and I'm not eligible for any in the LA I live in." Could I ask if your placing authority and the authority you live in could come to some sort of agreement whereby your local authority could provide services or counselling and it be paid for by the placing council? If the placing council provide counselling etc would they provide transport to it. Could you ask for that? The additional cost of providing transport might make them more willing to come to an arrangement with your local authority. Remember to remind them (I am sorry to say this) that your local authority will be picking up the pieces and 'paying' in a few years once 'responsibility' moves to them (is it after two years or three?).

I agree with mrssprout that some social workers may well deal with the loudest people first. If you are so stressed you are emailing and calling all the time and sending calls with 'I will ring in a few days for an update' then that person may well think 'ok let's deal with nothingcomestonothing because then they will be sorted. Do your children still have a social worker? Do they have the same one? My ds is still looked after and he has a social worker and so do we, so there are two people we can turn to if we need to. Is it the same for you?

I think with kids it is important to try and think, where will this go. If I leave this situation, what will happen. Will it get better, stay the same or get worse, how much worse? Situations rarely stay the same (IMHO) some problems just get better, this one does not sound like it will. So how can you get the help you need. Keep a diary of incidents for both ds and dd and if you see the incidences increasing in frequency and severity/stress for you/stress for kids etc then you can tell social services exactly what is happening.

If these things are occurring every few days you can explain the new incidents and explain that this is a new incident, then recap, so as well as this that and the other, now I have this to deal with. But I would actually rephrase it as so now dd and ds have this happening etc so that social services know it is not just you 'suffering' (maybe they feel you are in some ways 'expendable'! But your dd is suffering and is making ds suffer. It is all understandable, their early life maybe made it inevitable . But it may well be changeable, with help [smile.

Anyway, what do I know I am new to all this but I can hear your voice and there is an element of panic, your dd is getting bigger, you have said

She 'tried to break her window with a broom in a temper' (what could have happened if she had done it, could she have been cut, or you or ds or could someone have fallen out of the window!

She '...punches pinches pulls hair etc.' (Yes, all kids might do this, but maybe she does it more, more violently, or maybe you just know she is communicating unresolved distress through this, she is effectively saying , 'help me'.

'She has to win and be first at absolutely everything - will literally push DS down the stairs to get up them first' (that could result in an injury for him, or even for her or both of them!).

If the SW has said '... they won't fund any therapy now ... but she will probably need it 'later'' that sounds like palming you off, is there a medical/therapeutic reason for waiting? Can you find any case studies where waiting was disastrous and threaten them with these?

If CAMHS declined to work with your DD as she didn't meet their threshold - was this a long time in the past, was that before the incidents you mentioned above?

Please do get a local MP or someone who has some power on your side, while you have some degree of time, before you have to go back to work and get that person to work for you. Your local MP should. Adoption is a hot topic with politicians at the moment, it is a lot in the media and it only understandable that you need help.

I sense that you are minimising the problems (no criticism, I think we all do this). It is just that you started with the cat litter tray and then revealed the violence. I think this is a natural protection thing for all of us (to minimise), we want to believe the best of our kids and not to admit to how bad things can be. I felt the same with my dd when she was being very difficult. BUT I feel minimising now will be your enemy, you need all the help you can get now so you will hopefully need less help later.

You must get help. You must convey all this to the placing authority. It is your own decision whether you want to make it sound like the placement may be in jeopardy if you do not get help. Your call. I cannot say what they would do either way. It may be gamble. But will you cope if you do not get help? If there is any doubt in your mind then you need to get that help, and show you can do the job, you can be strong, but you need professional help. (And please do go to GP about IBS, mine was worse and I singled out a couple of fruits and cut them down/out and it has been better BUT I know IBS is vary varied).

If I were in your boat, I would be making someone at the placing authority's life a misery until I got help. Frequent calls, frequent examples of the behaviour and another call to CAMHS.

Good luck. SORRY this is such a long reply!

Please do update us.

[Italiangreyhound]

I think on the question of non-adopters offering advice, I was one of those people who offered advice, and still do, based on my birth dd, who is dyslexic and has displayed some challenging behaviour. I think that advice can be helpful and can offer suggestions or techniques for 'dealing with' behaviour but if behaviour is communication (as I think it often can be, then it is essential as tethersend says to know a child's history.

[mrssprout]

Having read your updates since my first post it is sounding more likely that there may be something else going on. I agree that you need to continue to push for any additional help you feel you may need now or in the future. I am not in the UK so our system here will be different but I was told once by a SW here that her case load was so big that the way she prioritised who got dealt with first was by seeing to the person making the most noise. So if she had someone calling a few times a week, emailing all the time & generally being in constant contact she would get them sorted as quickly as she could just to get a bit of quiet to deal with other things. Probably not the most helpful plan but at least she was honest with me. Keep on to people until someone is prepared to help you with what you need. Hope you can get things sorted.

[Italiangreyhound]

Have just realised there is a whole page i did not see, I thought it was one page only but was two. Sorry OP. I can see you are mentioning jealousy. I will read on. I just wanted to say my reply was really only based on your comments on the first page.

[Italiangreyhound]

nothingcomestonothing I am a new adoptive mum to a boy (almost 4) and a birth mum to a DD (almost 10).

I think a lot of behaviour can be the way that children communicate with us, and some of it is just because they want to do something. Only you will be able to work out in relation to what else is going on whether this is your child sending you a message about how she feels or simply wanting to try out something she has seen the cat do.

For some perspective I would add that my dd is very keen on animals and frequently dresses as a cat/dog, puts her food or water in a bowl and pretends to to a dog/cat but she has never tried to use the cat litter tray (she is older than your dd). The fact other people have said their kids have done this sort of thing is in some ways reassuring, that it is not so unusual, but that does not mean it is not unusual for your dd.

My dd was clean and dry in the daytime by 3 but the Christmas after she turned 3 I left her for a whole day with a friend while I went to a works Christmas do. It was not unusual for dd to be 'left' as she went to nursery, but she was not used to being at a friend's house (my friend who has a dd her age who was her friend). I collected DD and walked into the house and she was wearing the same clothes I dropped her off in, within minutes of walking in the door, possibly seconds, he had wet herself. No big deal, but I really felt it was her sending me a signal, she was not happy to have been left with a friend all day. It made me think about whether it was right to leave dd in that type of situation for a while. That is what I mean about behaviour being children's way of communicating. i am sure you have been told about this in your pre-adoption training.

As you say 'She's got more and more oppositional and aggressive lately' i would see it as part of that and look into ways of helping her generally with attaching and relaxing as part of being at home. I am not sure whether this is a sign she feels at home and relaxed, it might be. I've certainly noticed my little boy is pushing boundaries more and I feel that it can be a sign of being more relaxed and able to be their true selves, but it may also be a way of expressing confusion, uncertainty etc. I would start to look out for any pattern, e.g. I have noticed ds can be a bit more difficult after social workers have visited. I would assume you are still getting visits from social workers (?).

Is there jealousy between your dd and ds or ds and dd? You don't need to say their relative ages etc, unless they were adopted together I am assuring ds is older. In our family it is my birth child who is more jealous and is having a hard time. Sometimes when I am affectionate with ds my dd shows she does not like it and feels a bit 'threatened' by my attachment to ds. I wonder if your dd is jealous of your ds? It's just the ball incident as well as inconveniencing you is also inconveniencing ds!

All these things may be very much a part of 'normal' family life but I do think you are right to consider the adoption aspect and to seek professional help. If your daughter is still a looked after child then social services have a (what's the word) duty of care?? And should provide whatever help is needed to help her settle in.

Good luck.

[Branleuse]

She soundsvery bright. I think there does soumd as if there's more to it. Theres bound to be isnt there. Ds being that bit younger wont be having the same issues at the same time.
It sounds like the authorities Are being shit and unsupportive which doesnt surprise me.
Can you ask for a referral to camhs, or self refer for anything.
As im not an adopter i dont know the specifics of that, although my good friend does have an adopted dd also with certain issues. I do have children with SEN and know several childrem with behavioural issues, and know a lot about struugles with authorities.
Families in focus might help?

[nothingcomestonothing]

Thanks all, not having the best morning so far but not as bad as yesterday! DD and DS are full sibs, removed together. There was severe domestic violence, one parent was a substance misuser and the other dependent and anxious, wider family all very entrenched in violent/criminal behaviour. Some of DDs behaviour, like the way she raises her fist as a threat, is clearly something she's seen. Also the way she disregards rules/expectations, as I think she's learnt you do what you can get away with and it only matters if you get caught!

I am in East Anglia, don't want to be more specific but DCs are from an area which used to have a joint adoption service with another LA and now doesn't, if that helps locals identify it without me naming? I live in another LA an hour away, and am a single parent, so accessing their parents groups is practically difficult and I'm not eligible for any in the LA I live in.

I have said I won't put in the adoption application until 1)the LA agree to continue the adoption allowance until DCs are 18 (so I can work p/t which they definitely need me to do), and 2) to fund any therapy needed in the future if CAMHS won't do it, even if we're post 3 years - LA are making noises that 2 will never happen and 1 looks less and less likely. I threw a strop with the LAC SW last week and said it'd be cheaper for them to give me what I've asked for than keep sending her out every 6 weeks and having LAC reviews, medicals, PEP meetings etc - she didn't disagree but I don't think she's got any power to do anything about it. I asked for £40 a week in the 6 week holiday so DD could go to DS's childminder one day a week, to give her a bit of structure and me some respite, the SW said 'adopted children don't get respite unless it's provided by family members'.

DDs school have been great and they might well use some of the PPP to fund therapy - although obviously that's not going to happen any time soon now. DD's behaviour is impeccable at school, she saves it all for home, luckily the school understand this, I am very fortunate there. Part of my fear is that DD has no diagnoses and I get a lot of either explicit or implied 'all she needs is the stability you can give her', no one seems to see (or want to see) her behaviour as possibly more. It's not that I want it to be, I'd love to believe that my love and security will work magic but I'm not naïve and I know that's unlikely to be enough. DD had lifestory work with a therapist, which she hated and refused to engage in - used to spend 3/4 of every session either under the table or chanting 'I hate therapist, I want therapist to go'. Therapist sold this at the LAC meeting as 'DDs way of dealing with her anxiety, it was a joke really' - no it really wasn't! I used to dread the sessions.

DCs are currently at the park with the grandparents while I pack for our holiday - we're off to the seaside tomorrow. I am nervous as we've only been away for one night by ourselves before, we've been on longer trips but my mum came with us. If the worst comes to the worst I supposed we'll just come home! Thanks for reassuring me I'm not insane, and not alone. Thank you.

[Lonecatwithkitten]

I am not an adopter, but I do have a DD who had a chaotic lifestyle 50% of the time with ExH after he left including verbal abuse. She displayed all the behaviours you are describing apart from peeing in the litter tray, but she showed other behaviours that suggested she was jealous of the pets who were with me all the time.
The behaviour was tied into a massive range of emotions including anger, fear and low self esteem.
Mostly the behaviour has resolved by ensuring continuity and consistency so she absolutely knows the rules, I don't sweat the small stuff (weeing in a litter tray I would clear up and just remind her to use toilet), reassuring that I love her no matter what, but because I love her I have to pull her up on unreasonable behaviour. We have a clear set of rules with clear consequences.
Finally a year of counselling which is totally confidential apart from child protection issues.
I won't lie the path to where we are now has been hard I describe it as 'I took the broken pieces that made a child and glued them back together with love and consistency'. I have cried more tears than you can imagine in the privacy of my room. It has consumed my life and nearly broken me.
From talking to professionals I learnt that one of the reasons I saw all of this anger was because I was her safe person where she could finally express all of this and I would still love her.

[Branleuse]

Does she have any SEN diagnoses?
My ds peed in the cat litter tray recently. I didnt see it as a particularly big deal. He does have HFA though. I just told him not to.

Im assuming, if youve had her 10 months and shes 6, shes going to be going through some pretty tough attachment issues, which youll need support with. Disturbed is probably not the best way of putting it. Are you having trouble bonding so far? Having your own younger child is probably going to feel like a challenge for her

[wanttosinglikemarycoughlan]

I'm a recently name changed adopter
I know non-adopters often feel miffed that their advice is felt not to be welcome but adoption really is totally different
My DD peed on things, usually BS clothes and shoes
She was much younger though. I thought it was a very base behaviour and a marking territory type behaviour
She too can be very violent and has damaged our home and set fires
Do you get DLA? I have set up a savings account for it and plan to use it for future therapy
We have gone for a compensatory approach
We have internal locks, keypads from upstairs to down so I can contain her
Consequences do not really work for my DD
The Bryan Post approach works the best but I don't always achieve it
I know what you mean. My DD us getting bigger and I fear for our futures but she has progressed
I did manage to get funded respite and other support but had to battle. I enlisted the help of my MP and wrote directly to the head of SS
PM if you want more detailed info

[misspollysdollyridesagain]

Ooh, and (without giving too much away) whereabouts are you based...??

[misspollysdollyridesagain]

Adoptive parent here (some unhelpful responses here already, I see ) - will need to post later but will do so...didn't want to read and run. Quick question for now though...what post-adoption/adoption specific support do you have in place or available to you?

[Booboostoo]

I am sorry to hear it's more than the litter tray accident. I don't have any experience of this situation, I hope you can get the help your family needs.

[Devora]

That sounds massively stressful. Clearly you need more support than you are getting - - what are the plans for finalising the adoption? Because, as I'm sure you know, you will be in a much weaker position for negotiating support once that goes through. I know CAMHS is in a terrible state but this is a fight worth having now, rather than later. Have you tried the adoptionuk helpline?

You must also be concerned about the impact on DS. Is he also adopted? Is he the birth brother of dd? The dynamic between them sounds worthy of some attention too.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. Neither Lilka nor Kristina are around right now but I'm sure they will give brilliant advice when they're back.

[ghostisonthecanvas]

The lack of support is not good. Do you have all the past history of your children? This will help you learn, help you trust your instinct more. I found though, that understanding the whys didn't make it easier to get through the day. You need help. You know this but if no one is listening its very hard. Would you feel comfortable sharing which council? Maybe there are people on here who can give advice and contacts of local support groups. I have no advice tho for her behaviours, you already seem to have good boundaries/consequences. There will be more experienced adoptors who will have practical tips. Reading as much as I could about attachments and going to BAAF organised workshops was very helpful for me.

[unlucky83]

- so a lot more to it than weeing in a litter tray!
(still don't think I would worry about that too much though -can't be 100% certain but like I said with my DD and the sofa I wondered if she disturbed - she was being bullied/had been abused/I had mentally scared her etc etc - but now I'm sure it was 'normal' for her)

I have no experience with adoption so can't offer any practical advice but sympathy and -
can you throw a tantrum on someone? Hopefully someone here can help more...

Sleep deprivation and pain are not a good combination - pretty normal to be finding that difficult even with angelic children...don't beat yourself up for being snappy...you're only human.

Night terrors...if they are just 'normal' ones what worked for both mine was 'foxy' - a stuffed toy that DD1 was given by a friend in the middle of her night terrors ...an artic fox. Foxy wanted to look after DD - didn't like things frightening her - so he slept with her and if anything tried to frighten her in her sleep he scared them off ...I used to have conversations with foxy etc and she really believed in him and miraculously it worked . When DD2 started having them Foxy came out and worked his magic...might be a long shot but worth a try?

Hopefully someone will be along soon who is more experienced...but until then more .

[nothingcomestonothing]

Okay I'm off the dinner/bath/story/bed treadmill and back with more explanation. DD has lately got more violent and tried harder to push buttons - tried to break her window with a broom in a temper, has repeatedly kicked her door (if we lived in a new build it'd have a hole in now, she's quite big, but we live in a post war council house and the doors appear to be made of granite!), constantly arguing - the sky is green the grass is blue, because I've said the opposite, just constant needling. She is massively controlling and jealous towards DS, who is 2 3/4 - takes every toy he touches, tries to stop him moving around, punches pinches pulls hair etc. She has to win and be first at absolutely everything - will literally push DS down the stairs to get up them first, tantrums if he gets his toothpaste on his brush before her, anything. Oddly seems to have no animosity towards the cat, only once has she tried to hurt him whereas she is violent to me and DS daily. She hasn't struggled much with school holidays up til now (she started school in January) although of course this is a long one and she knows going back she will have a different teacher in a different classroom, which we've talked about a lot.

I have been trying to use logical consequences - so for the peeing she had to wipe up the floor, and once I'd washed out the tray she had to refill the litter. I haven't got any logical consequence for the violence so I give both DCs 20 pennies a day each in a pot, they lose one for any violent act and get to keep what's left at bedtime. She seems to like this and always wants to end up with more than DS (who doesn't really understand it but I have to do the same for both of them). I have been trying to keep my temper, but she can so wind me up.

I think it got on top of me today because of a combination of things. The LA are being useless, SW has said they won't fund any therapy now (she had lifestory work which was a disaster as she wouldn't cooperate) but she will probably need it 'later' (I read that as, when it'll be the financial problem of the LA we live in not the once she was placed from). The LA are also currently not committing to even the amount of support we get now, post AO. CAMHS declined to work with DD as she didn't meet their threshold. DS has night terrors and wakes me every night, so I am always sleep deprived. I am due to go back to work in 2 months, to a pretty dysfunctional team, I don't know if my application to drop my hours will be approved and if it isn't I'll just have to resign cos I can't work full time, neither DC would cope with that much childcare and I'd be dead on my feet, so I'm worried about that. I have recently been diagnosed with IBS, and am in pain quite a lot of the time.

I am scared DD is getting physically bigger, and getting angrier and more aggressive, and am seeing a future where no one will fund any therapy, I'm getting physically and emotionally abused by a child who is bigger than me (maybe two, since DS sees and sometimes copies her behaviour), and I can't see any cavalry coming. It's not all bad, DD can be a delight and I do love her, but I'm stressed and scared that this is the tip of a big nasty iceberg which no one but me can see.

[unlucky83]

She might go on to be a great scientific researcher...make some mind blowing discoveries...

And assuming this child hasn't come across a cat tray before ...if she had when younger she may well have done it sooner...but the idea may only just have popped into her head...

There was a thread on here ages ago about odd things DCs had done... a real eye opener...made me understand DD1 better.
She has done loads of WTF? things - stabbed the leather sofa with blunt knife on a corkscrew (9yo) was one of most expensive and shocking ones...I thought something must have happened at school etc but talking to her about it she wasn't angry or being deliberately naughty.It was just to see how much force it would take. My DD2 is completely different - does the odd random thing but not in the same league.

This child may just be one of those children whether she is adopted or not...it does depend on other behaviours and frequency ...and obviously in the circumstances the OP does need to be more aware and consider her background when she reacts...

[Kewcumber]

Knowing a child's history is always relevant when examining their behaviour.

Exactly Tether

[Kewcumber]

I don;t think OP said she was dismissing non-adopters (though tbh its probably worth ignoring "Christ grip time woman!" as being somewhat unhelpful), but trying to work out who were the adopters and who weren't. Its probably because many of us at one time or other have been told that "all children do that" only to discover that our instincts were correct and the behaviour was symptomatic of a bigger problem.

I'm also slightly surprised that so many people seem to think its so normal for a six year old to be random weeing around the place. Thinking back to DS at that age, I would have been quite amazed if he started peeing in the cat litter tray at 6.

I'm not sure that it would be unusual to not be totally bonded within 10 months in a school age adoption so I'm not that is completely an issue though might make it harder to deal with challenging behaviour. It is possible she is regressing or that she is relaxing enough to show some of her issues more clearly. Either way I think you need to talk to someone about it.

School can be helpful if she's also showing challenging behaviour in school though obviously thats out now until Sept.

[tethersend]

I think it is important to see a child's behaviour in the context of their experiences- even if the behaviour is identical, effective strategies for dealing with it in a child who is securely attached and has experienced no trauma can be very different to effective strategies to use with a trauma-experienced child. Quite often, they are complete opposites.

A good example is ignoring unwanted behaviour. Whilst this can be an excellent technique to use with a securely attached, non trauma-experienced child, for a child who has experienced neglect for example, it can have a very negative and harmful effect.

Knowing a child's history is always relevant when examining their behaviour.

[YouAreMyRain]

I have two adopted dd. I have found wee in many places, plant pots, dollys potty (and all over the floor as it over spilled!) and recently my 6yr old pooed on the garden path.

I think it is immaturity and curiosity and by itself not a concern.

I also agree it may be jealousy towards the cat.

[Twitterqueen]

OP - why are you dismissing all replies from non-adopters? Just because we haven't adopted doesn't mean we don't have valid experience of children.

She peed in an appropriate place. This is not really the issue is it? You don't seem very comfortable with her behaviour, which actually is really not important in this case, so I'm thinking there are other issues.

Do you love her? Do you feel you have bonded?