Legal process

[Drypancake]

Hi - I am looking for some insight into the tail end court process and key documents. Our adoption (ie final) court hearing is on 23 June. The adoption is not contested.

Wondering if anyone knows the answers to any the following

1. how long between the adoption order and the pronouncement hearing?
   
2. is the pronouncement hearing optional (ie purely celebratory and at the request of the adopters) or mandatory. Do you receive any documents at that hearing?
   
3. what is the difference between the adoption certificate and the amended birth certificate? Who issues these? What is the use of either of these?
   
4. how long did it take for either the adoption certificate or the amended birth certificate to be issued?
   
   Thank you so much.

[Drypancake]

Hi guys. So, adoption order was granted last week, which was a huge relief.

On top of that, good news to Hels20 and everyone else who thinks it takes 2 months+ to get the passport: we seem to have found a way to shorten that to 2 weeks (!). Here's what we did

1. Ask for judgement to be written up on the day. We had our solicitor say he would wait until it is done. Then we asked the clerk for it to be sent to GRO right away.
   
2. We called the adoption team in the GRO every day. After 2 days they confirmed they had received it. We sent them an email with confirmation that it was urgent (proof of travel booking), and paid £30 or so over the phone for the long form certificates and the special delivery. They arrived 5 days after the adoption hearing!
   
3. Meanwhile we scheduled a "Fast Track" appointment for a passport application, for which we had to pay £90. We got an appointment within a week of asking (maybe this was luck). They told us the processing time was guaranteed to be within 1 week. Remains to be seen but we are hopeful.
   
   As I said, maybe we were extremely lucky, but there is still hope for those looking to get a few days of sunshine before the summer is out.

[excitedmamma]

we got another stamped copy of the adoption order, some informal certificate and a photograph of us with the judge....

after that, the short version of the birth certificate arrived in the post, with an application form for the full adoption certificate - including a phone number & reference number that we used to order it over the phone... iirc you could pay extra for express delivery

[Hels20]

Excited that is really interesting. I'm going to ask. On adoption order day, do you come away with any paperwork?

[excitedmamma]

our judge at the celebration hearing told us that we could use the adoption order to gain a passport in the new name.... said the court officials would help us do that... in our case it didn't matter and we waited until we had the 'full' birth certificate & applied for passport then..

just a thought and worth checking with the court if you really wanted to get away & time was against you...

[fasparent]

Know of one sibling in group where legal forgot process in mix up for one
child, intention of adoption has too be registered too LA three month's prior too process, child was not registered was picked up too late, child was an adult by this time, omission could not be revoked .

[gymmommy]

A bit off topic but just to warn everyone currently with applications in, we had a final hearing date through but it turned out not to be the final hearing. We thought a court letter with final hearing surely must mean final. SW dumbfounded. Just taking each court date as a step closer to the adoption now and trying not to stress too much and just enjoy lo.

[Lilka]

An adoption order can be appealed and overturned but only in 2 circumstances - the correct legal process wasn't followed, or, in the case of a relinquished baby, if the mother can show she was forced to 'relinquish' because of coercion/blackmail etc and thus there was never really consent to adoption in the first place. Correct legal process includes things like serving papers to the right people, and ensuring that birth parents have their time to appeal etc, before the adoption order is made.

Without meaning to worry anyone, just thought Hels you might be interested to know of another adoption order revoked just this week. Failure in process, they didn't give the birth mum 21 days to appeal something before finalising the adoption, so now over a month down the line, oh no, adoption revoked. Mother wrote a blog about post about it here - 2outofthree.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/adoption-order-set-aside/

Just awful for the family, and it should never ever have happened But at least it's only a technicality really and a new adoption will be finalised soon

But yes, nearly all legal orders can be appealed, within a set time period (you go out of that time period and don't appeal within it, you generally can't appeal later, that was a key issue in the Webster case for instance)

[Jennifersrabbit]

Hels - here too

I was trying to reassure as well! I think it's the difference isn't it between a process where the right of appeal is written into the legislation, as it is pre adoption order, and the fact that if a process is completely mishandled (ie drunk judge scenario) you could challenge that. But I think you'd have to bring judicial review?

As you say I can't see it happening.

I hadn't thought about the complexity of travelling as a legally non existent person! Was thinking that legally you can go under whatever name you fancy, but I can see having been legally non-existed may be a step beyond.

Pancakes, could the grandparents come to you perhaps?

[Hels20]

PS Drypancake - not trying to set hares running re: adoption order and its finality. As I said, I read recently that judges could only think of one instance where an adoption order had been set aside - this is different to where parents are given leave to appeal (where there are a few more examples).

[Hels20]

Jennifer I think that the LA will keep hold of the passport. I am almost certain that it would be fraud to travel on such a passport (I speak as a lawyer...) even if the Adoptive Parents did have it because such a person has technically ceased to exit...

As for appeal - as I said above, technically, if there has been a manifest failure to follow due process and it would have made a difference (or e.g. the judge was completely paralytic when he heard the case) then an adoption order could be set aside. But this is so unlikely. Even though technically, the adoption order in Re W (A Child) 2010 could have been set aside because the mother was never served with the papers, the adoption order stood because it wouldn't have changed the course of events - would have merely delayed.

Drypancake - I feel for you. We are in the same situation and it is very frustrating.

[fasparent]

Agree with you Lilka ALL children Adopted or Otherwise have a Certificate of Entry Also can obtain a Certificate of Birth short form which one can ask for or is issued with just child's name on it. Would need entry certificate for passport records checks etc. Short Birth Certificate is child friendly no mention of adoption on it what so ever. useful if child needs too use Birth Certificate or produce one , without personal disclosures

[Jennifersrabbit]

What a shame - sounds like v bad timing.

Have you double checked that LO has never been abroad on holiday with foster carers for example? And therefore doesn't have a passport in their birth name which they could travel on?

Also could you potentially apply in birth name now, with SS agreement?

Just thoughts.

Re appeal rights, I am pretty sure that birth parents have a formal right to ask for leave to appeal against the order being made before the first hearing. I havent understood there to be any further right to appeal after the adoption order is made - I think in law it is final and absolute which is in part why there is the last chance of appeal beforehand.

I'd always understood the split hearing to be simply because birth parents are informed of date and time of hearing, and have a right to attend, so obviously having one hearing for both final decision and 'celebration' would be difficult all round.

[Hels20]

1. there is always a right of appeal for decisions made
   by any court (apart from ECHR). In this instance it should be a formality - but if eg the birth parents had never been sent the paperwork, or the papers had been sent to the wrong family, then theoretically, birth parents could appeal. I read a case not so long ago on FamilyLawWeek which talks about the extremely rare circumstances an adoption order could be revoked - always when due process failed and wasn't followed. But so unlikely. Courts are so careful (the judge
   In the case I read said he could only think of one example where due process had not been followed and so the AO was quashed).
   
   But you get PR on adoption order day.
   
   
2. not sure why - but I was looking this up for our DS and you can't use the 48 hour process offered by Victoria or the 7 day fast track. I think it is only for renewals. I even phoned up the passport office and they confirmed my understanding.

[Drypancake]

Hels20 - thank you. 2 questions:

1. Are you certain there is an appeal right after the "final" hearing. We've been told there is an appeal right now, ie prior to that hearing. I wasn't aware there will be another one later.
   
2. Why can you not fast track LO's passport?

[Lilka]

drypan having the pronouncement hearing won't delay getting the new certs, they don't wait till that hearing to send the docs off as far as I know - they can't have waited with mine, the sbc arrived too soon after the celebration hearing - literally couple of days for DS - for that to be the case

[Lilka]

fasparent adopted children in the UK don't have birth certificates with their adoptive parents names on. The court sends the adoption order details to the Register Office, and they create the adoption certificate which acts as a birth certificate. But the certificate absolutely is an adoption certificate, not a birth certificate. It says on the top something like 'certified copy of an entry in the adopted children's register' and contains some adoption details on it. You can't mistake it for a birth certificate

It's interesting what different countries do though. America also reissue amended long birth certificates. Personally I don't think I'd want something implying I'd given birth to my children (and there are American adult adoptees who are vocal about not wanting amended birth certificates) but on the other hand they do offer privacy about adoption and there's of adults who prefer the privacy it offers and don't really care about it implying that their adoptive mum is their birth mum. Interesting

[Hels20]

After the adoption order, there will then be a period of 2 or : weeks for a right of appeal...only after that will you get to the celebratory hearing.

We are in the same boat - adoption order hearing coming up...a free overseas holiday (for various reasons) but I think we are looking at about 4 or 5 months from adoption order until we get passport in our hands... And you can't fast track LO's passport...so you will have to wait 3 or 4 weeks...

[Drypancake]

Thanks everybody, that was exactly the information I was looking for. I was wondering if there would be time to get a passport and take our DS to see my parents in France in the summer. Alas, it doesn't look like it.

I tried to get this info from our SW, council's legal department, my own solicitor. No-one has a flipping clue. You guys rock!

We do want the pronouncement hearing, I was just wondering if having it extends the amount of time it takes for the adoption certificate to be issued.

[bberry]

Great post, v useful!

[fasparent]

Lastlight it is only a certificate of adoption, which is sent too Adoption registry in Southport who will send an official Birth Certificate with new parents and child's name with no inference too Adoption recorded on certificate.

[Lilka]

Also, if you don't get sent the amended short BC in the post in a reasonable period of time, do enquire about it (you get this one automatically, you only need to order the adoption cert. I got a discount with the form that came with the short BC IIRC)

I know of an adoptive parent who only realised several years into the adoption, that the court had never sent the adoption order to the RO, who hadn't issued any new certificates, hence official docs still showed the birth parents as legal parents.

(which is just ridiculous, I mean how hard can it be to do this one thing, court? How hard can it be?)

[LastingLight]

Interesting. In South Africa a new birth certificate is issued with the child's name and the adoptive parents' names. There is no indication that the child was adopted.

[fasparent]

Sorry you can do it over the telephone, did it with ours.

[fasparent]

Have too send forms too Southport too get Official Birth Certificates with new names etc. Southport is the centre for Adopted Children's birth Certificates.

[Jennifersrabbit]

Sorry same problem here. As I was sitting next to the filing cabinet I had a look at ours ...

Short form does in fact say 'certificate of birth' and has adopted child's name, date and place of birth.

Long form says 'copy of an entry in the register' but is very clearly an adoption cert as it has 'date the adoption was effected'.

Shows how much I look at official documents