punished by rewards

[prumarth]

I was recommended a book from a very experienced educational psychologist called Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn. It discusses the psychology of rewarding children through offering rewards like treats or stars for inducing a desired behaviour. His research basically demonstrates that offering incentives to behave in a certain way (such as sticker system for good behaviour or for achieving a desired outcome) is actually counter productive and can lead children to under performing in desired behaviour over time. The theory (in my clumsy interpretation) is that dangling rewards doesn't change the core behaviour and experiments have shown that children offered rewards for tasks on later occasions actually show disengagement from the task versus children who were encouraged to find intrinsic value in the task itself.
He believes that rewards and punishments are two sides to the same coin.
Similarly, he believes praising children for things has a negative impact on children's esteem - so don't say "you're an amazing artist" when they draw a picture but say something like "the mountains in that picture are very tall - what gave you the interesting idea to draw that" for example.

Some of the above has resonance with some things I have read about children with trauma - e.g. that using visual "good behaviour" charts in schools can lead to them being demotivated and sometimes disruptive. Also that low self worth can react badly to effusive praise which can be deemed as empty words or even that the parent doesn't see the real "bad" them and causes anxiety.

So, my question is this:-

• do you agree / disagree with the principle that rewards are only temporarily productive but don't change core behaviours
  
• ditto to praise
  
• what techniques would you utilise to encourage a certain behaviour if not through rewards or incentives
  
• does your school use reward systems and have they been beneficial or detrimental to your child
  

Apologies if I have butchered the research description - typing on a kindle isn't ideal!

[namechangesforthehardstuff]

And yes I would agree that the word 'discipline' reduces this to some kind of technique to gain compliance...

[roadwalker]

I think the whole 'how do you discipline' kind of misses the theory and point of this approach
The whole approach starts with the belief that behaviour is communication and that children will do well if they can
My DD was very neglected, she was crying out for a mother. She was scarily violent with other children and animals. This wasn't a 'naughty' behaviour but caused by stress and fear. That doesn't mean I let her hurt other children and I told her it was wrong.
I carried on taking her to playgroup, sat outside with her if she did hurt another child and stayed close to prevent it happening. I was like a shadow for a long time
With hindsight I should have realised that the whole situation was too stressful for her and waited until she could cope with it
Avoiding shaming the child is essential
I agree that a lot of praising/sticker charts etc make the adult feel good, I think it makes us feel in control but I still think it is the wrong thing to do

Last year my DD was totally out of control at school, terrible behaviour, hitting and kicking teachers, spitting at teachers, refusing to work, going nuts around the classroom
I know what triggered the behaviour and we are lucky that, on the whole, school is very supportive
Her class teacher told me I have started a behaviour chart
My DD was not in control of her behaviour, no way would a behaviour chart make any difference other than to stress her out because she would not get the stickers. The stress of the chart actually made her behaviour worse
I said to the teacher, well I suppose it makes you feel you are doing something to manager her, and this IMO was the only effect of the chart

[namechangesforthehardstuff]

I do think that's an interesting point Betty and I have felt that as a teacher in secondary phase. I suppose if it's a choice between being negative and positive praise then positive praise everytime BUT if there can sometimes be a choice between a sticker chart/manipulative platitude and actually talking things through with a person who you are showing genuine respect for as another human being? Again no contest really...

I think this kind of approach gets a bad press because people mix it up with lazy parenting (sometimes the people mixing it up are the ones doing the parenting IME) but I've never let my DD hit other children. I've moved her away from them, I've taken her hand and stroked something saying 'gentle', I've talked to her about kind hands and why they are important. During the one time in her life when she was not being very kind to a friend of ours I tried to understand why she wanted to hit a littler person and discussed with her how that feels for him; I let the other parent speak to her about how that feels for him and point out that they couldn't come and see us if he was going to be hit; I changed the way I reacted to them coming to our house by giving her lots of attention when they walked in so that it wasn't a case of me instantly disappearing to make tea/find biscuits etc as we decided that was a bit of an issue. I just haven't offered her praise or sanction because that feels like puppy training and she's not a puppy.

But DD is a BC and I am conscious that she doesn't have a pre-exisiting attachment issue. Very grateful to have the experience of APs here to offer and insight into what this kind of parenting might look like for us if we become adopters this year as we are hoping to.

[cosmos239]

Good discussion, to answer your question couthy, firstly my child is only middle childhoof just now so I can't say how the approach I have just now will look by 11 but just now refusing to do what's asked just isn't an option I.e if they're asked to pick up either the knife or the fork that's fallen on the ground, nothing else happens until it's done. I'd try to distract and make it into a game, as toy would with a toddler really, I.e I wonder who can get the fork to the sink the fastest and usually I get the desired behavior. Sometimes I do get annoyed and let my own anger dictate my behavior And find myself saying if you don't pick it up right now then... With my child this makes him worry that our relationship is on shaky ground and unlike a securely attached birth child he panics at this, and doesn't 100 percent know this break in our normally loving relationship is temporary, and goes into defensive angry mode and it takes twice the time top get the desired behaviour. So not doing what I've asked isn't an option as like you say it's not good for children to think they can do whatever they like. We now have a fairly secure attachment and I can give consequences sometimes but there is a part of him that always holds the idea that parents can leave and never come back, so if I discipline with any kind of consequence that involves removing him from me or vice versa, tinge out, he genuinely panics a little and then is in a heightened emotional state where controlling his behavior becomes much harder for him.

There are also different types of attachment, the desired one is a secure attachment between adult and child where a child thinks the bond between them is secure whatever happens. It's possible to have attachments which aren't secure, latching onto a relative stranger is a key sign of insecure attachment and is a behavior that should raise concerns but isn't uncommon amongst adopted children.

Real parents real children is a great book for explaining why parenting of secure birth children can be very different to adopted children. We are a number of years down the line from adopting and if you met us our parenting wouldn't look that different to the norm, our child is if say of average to well behaved you might just see a bit more empathy and hugs when he's done something naughty when angry but never endorsing the behaviors, just the feelings behind it. Ie he always had to help sort what's been done wrong, pick up thrown items etc. I don't think I'm explaining it well but it's not just soft parenting, if anything I'm quite strict!

I think it's about working out if the child can't Ot won't behave appropriately. If it's can't then Amy consequence is unfair and it's up to us as adults to engineer circumstances where they can behave appropriately I.e only playing with a friend for 10 minutes, noticing signs of their stress and getting to the our of control point and stepping in then before the negative behavior starts it's proactive rather than reactive parenting and did need much more attention on the child and more parental intervention than typical at that age than my friends with straight forward birth children had to do for the first few years at least.
Italian I'd really recommend the real parents real children book, the best and most grounded adoption book I read. Good luck with your adoption journey

[Swanhildapirouetting]

Betty I agree that giving rewards or praise make us feel good as parents/teachers/volunteers, and that gives the children the benefit of our improved mood. However, when the praise doesn't work, when the rewards backfire (I've seen this with my dd...the more you give her the crosser she feels. It is if she has been cheated out of something...she doesn't know quite what. Particular evident when we start opening the christmas presents )

then...you are left feeling bewildered and angry by a child that doesn't seem to subscribe to your attempts to please them. And the child is left with a feeling that you might at any point start telling them off or taking away the rewards if they aren't compliant and do exactly what you want, when you want. Which makes them feel frustrated and helpless.

And the flip side of rewards is always going to be NOT getting rewards, and feeling frustrated and angry about that.

The Kohn article show me how subtle the difference is between communicating and rewarding. Communicating is a "reward" in the true sense, but a fixed reward is an end in itself and does not lead to any growth or change in the mindset of the child.

[BettyBotter]

Very interesting.
Can I add a thought - that regardless of the effect or lack of effect of reward systems on dc, reward systems can have a very positive effect on the feelings of the 'rewarder'.

I'm thinking of my days long ago as a primary teacher in a school with extremely difficult circumstances, dealing daily with children showing an enormous range of very challenging to say the least behaviour. The school instigated a new rewards system based on praise and rewards. As I remember, for every instruction we made, we had to praise 3 times and ignore the bad. It forced me to do some fairly 'empty' praising (e.g. "OK everybody, sit down now please. Well done Mehmet - you sat down really quickly. Fantastic Sharlene, you are looking ready to start sitting. Great Alex, you are sitting nicely.)

I honestly don't know if it made a difference to the behaviour of the dcs but it made a hell of a difference to how I felt each day. It meant I spent my day saying positive stuff, noticing the good stuff and sounding happy, whereas before I'd probably spent my time saying 'George, don't do that. Ahamed, I'm still waiting. Chloe, would you like to share what's so funny and sounding cross.

I guess that rewards could have the same effect in families. Rewards, star charts, pasta jars or whatever require the parent to look for and notice the positive. My guess is that just doing that makes the parent feel more positive about their dc's behaviour and perhaps more effective as a parent. It changes the dynamic from focusing on the negative ("my child hardly ever gets ready for school on time") to the positive ("my child was on time for school on Tuesday so she gets a star - hooray!")

For that reason alone I think rewards are worth a try.

[prumarth]

Thanks coldfeet, I've just bought that book on my kindle so will read alongside the kohn book.

For anyone who hasn't read kohn's book, I've added a link to an article on the praise aspect - which summarises some of the points in the book which you may find useful.

www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm

[prumarth]

Thank you all for your thoughts on this, it's so helpful to see how the theory I'm reading through has been used in your lives and families - thank you all for sharing.

cosmos, your example about singing tasks to your child really struck a chord with me. The friend who gave me this book also sings a tidying up song with her 17 month old daughter and is lovely to see - the daughter packed up all her toys without issue as they did this. I'm definitely banking that idea for future use!

I think the comments about praise are also so interesting - I have realised reading this how many platitude type of praise I give my nieces and nephews ("good girl" etc) which I can see now are pretty easily dismissed to be honest. I am going to practice the more descriptive praise with them and see if I get different responses.

Italian, you will be awesome! No need for terror!

[Italiangreyhound]

Sorry I mean when our new child joins is '...we will not be making him or her fit in!'

I am not sure if it was clear, my DD has dyslexia and although I have never been tested I am sure I have it too. I even had one person on Mumsnet say she thought English was not my first language! my English is very eloquent it is just my spelling that is not!

[Italiangreyhound]

Cothy you sound like a lovely caring parent.

Swan Thanks for sharing. I agree....

"I think when you are on your child's side and are their advocate, you start worrying about why they are doing the [bad] things they do, and wondering how you can help, and that is a form of intuitive attachment parenting. You start thinking how you can build up their skills deficit, rather than how to stop them doing bad things per se. It is a different approach."

When dd was little I spent way too much time worrying about what other people thought! I am not talking about DD hitting others, I am not sure she ever did, or failing to share, she shared very well. But she did complain a bit, didn't want to join in, didn't want to eat the same food or the same way etc etc. Because I found it harder as a child with dyslexia to fit into school I really worried about DD fitting in and at times my desire for her to fit in overrode my desire to do the best for her.

Now I see things in a much better light and I try and do what is best for DD as much as I can. To some extend she still 'needs' to fit into the family for the sake of harmony in the home, and she is not little and she is a birth child, so when our new, younger, child join us by adoption we will not be making him fit in!

I think with all manner of challenging children one needs to re-evaluate what one can do/should do/what is best etc. You need to throw out the traditional 'parenting manuals' and start where the child is, but I also feel as they grow older that I (personally) needed DD to be able to fit into normal life at times. She can be a totally normal kid but she does have dyslexia and that (I am certain) effects how she processes information and does things. We are learning, we will get there.

I am excited/worried/bloody terrified to see what the new one will bring.

Thanks for all this wise advice one and all. Thanks for starting this thread prumarth - (if I am honest I came on thinking I would disagree with almost everyone and find I am agreeing and learning loads!)

[Swanhildapirouetting]

Couthy I think that there is no denying we all want to make rules for our children, which implicitly they understand should not be broken, like hitting people or trashing the house or stealing. That's like the 10 Commandments. When you are a child it is horrible to live in a world where rules are being broken all the time, by adults.

But then you take a step back and say, what if my child does not have the skills to obey these rules. What if they don't have the self control or self composure or self esteem that enables them to follow those rules? What if they hit people because they are angry and scared? What if they scream at you because they feel incredibly unhappy and worried about something and don't do what you ask? Are you just going to keep reminding them what the rules are, (maybe that will make them feel safer...it might...some parenting experts believe that makes children feel safe to know what the boundaries are and what is expected of them). But what if they genuinely cannot understand the rules because they don't have any value system at all. You have to start with the value system. You have to remind them they are worth something. And you cannot do that with punishment and reward in the traditional sense. The first rule is you are on their side (don't hurt, belittle, criticize, order around) and then the other rules follow.

I think when you are on your child's side and are their advocate, you start worrying about why they are doing the [bad] things they do, and wondering how you can help, and that is a form of intuitive attachment parenting. You start thinking how you can build up their skills deficit, rather than how to stop them doing bad things per se. It is a different approach.

Not laying down the law but working for them, with them or beside them.

There's another good book called Non Violent Resistance which talks about the way that violent children can be helped with structured support rather than consequences. Cannot remember the title exactly but google.

Couthy I'm so sorry you have been through so much...but what shines through your post is how much you want to help your children, not just reward or punish them.

[CouthyMow]

It's fine, I dealt with it myself, and grew as a person when I did so IYSWIM. I'm just curious how this type of parenting works longer term than just settling into an adoption placement, how long you carry on using these methods, whether they work with teenagers, especially those who have never responded to reward/consequence based systems, even if they haven't been adopted, as I'm curious as to whether they would work with my DD and DS3. DS2 and DS1 respond to rewards and praise, DD doesn't, and I'm wondering if this style of parenting (which I tend to use before they are around 4yo) works in the long term, as I've not really used it past 4yo.

[Italiangreyhound]

CouthyMow I could not read and run; I just wanted to say how very sorry I am you did not get the chance to have a normal childhood. I am sorry that you suffered so much. I really hope your life has become so much better, immeasurably better. thank you for sharing.

[CouthyMow]

Choice. Consequences. Autocorrect dislikes me.

[CouthyMow]

Ugh. Excuse the awful autocorrects.

[CouthyMow]

Cosmos. What do you do if the child then refuses to do either of the choices you have offered them? Do you just allow the DC to do nothing to help? If so, would you still allow that. DC to do nothing to help at 7? At 11? At 15?

At some point within a loving family, no matter what your background, you surely have to become expected to live by the general rules of society that there are consequences to your actions, and every choice you make has a consequence, and that even NOT making a chic IS still making a choice, and therefore has a consequence?

(I say this as an adult who was abused in ALL senses, from a VERY young age, and should have been removed when it first started and adopted.)

At what point would you expect the fact that a child had an awful start in life to stop being made allowances for? My whole childhood was awful, from birth right up to 16, but after I was no longer in that environment, I wouldn't have expected to be made any allowances for, and didn't expect to, say, hit someone in the street without the dose quenches being exactly the same as they would have been for someone who had had a perfect home life.

I can see that it might be necessary for a while, if you are the adoptive parent, to try to ease back a bit from reward/consequences, to allow the child to become attached to you, but as a child, in a shitty situation, tbh I don't think it would have taken that long to become attached to anyone who would bother to feed me, protect me from being raped, and not beat me, AND showed me love.

Right up until I was around 7yo, it wouldn't have taken me that long to feel attached to anyone who would treat me like a human being. Only past that could I see it being more problematic.

But how long do you carry that on for? Doesn't it just create a person who has no appreciation that in the real world, if you hit someone, you don't get to spend time with a nice, friendly person, you get taken into custody and charged?

I mean, I hear and see my instant objections to this parenting technique, at least longer term, but I'm certainly not professing to be the world expert on this, far from it, and I'm intrigued as to how this would work long term, hence the questions!

[Italiangreyhound]

Cosmos you are explaining it very well. It all makes a lot of sense.

I have actually done much of this with DD. Especially the distraction! Now she is 9 though there are times when I feel I do need to point out what is unacceptable. A big part of this is my concern for what she may do in other situations, e.g. 'bad' behaviour in school, with friends etc, not just around me.

But it all helps to be reminded because we very much hope a new little one will join us soon.

Thank you, any more thoughts, please do share or PM (Greedy person here wanting tips!) thanks.

[cosmos239]

Oops hit post too soon. Greyhound re how discipline works without reward or negative consequences. It's a lot about avoiding negative behavior and enabling positive I.e lots of distraction if it looks like child is going to misbehave remove them from situation or situation from them if possible, make it easy for them to do right thing accidentally so it becomes habit, I.e making game of everything, we sang instructions to tasks child didn't want to do, teeth, wash hands, pick up thrown objects etc for years! as it was met with far less resistance. For me it's not that I have no consequence for bad behaviour but the behavior is telling me something about how the child is handling a situation I.e that they can't cope with sharing the toy truck at Playgroup without adult help therefore they hit the other child. Therefore I would model the right behavio, say sorry to other child, give child time in with me I.e time and help to regulate themselves again, I'd empathise with their angry feelings about wanting the truck, remind of the basic rule governing the situation ' gentle hands' or whatever then move on and in future not let my child pay unsupervised with that child and that truck! I also try to avoid setting up situations which provoke a refusal to do something I.e conflict where I then feel I have to make it clear I'm in charge. For example instead of, go and set the table I'd use do you want to put the cutlery or the glasses out or set the table please them we'll have our pasta.
I'm prob not explaining it v well but I know I get much better responses and compliance! From my child when I avoid getting into the ' if you do this then....that'.. The confrontational aspect of it just sets my child into angry and defiant mode which is not his natural disposition!'

[Italiangreyhound]

Cosmos interesting points. I am very aware, the more I read, that in a way we need to understand all we can about our new little one and tailor how we behave to them. This is something I firmly believe and have implemented with my DD. I learnt the hard way that the Super Nanny approach, although good for some kids, just does not work for others.

I wonder how we alter that loop and get into the child's mind that attention can be a positive thing. I think some children must need really appropriate and supportive parenting, yet if their behaviour is very 'difficult to manage' i wonder how one does that!

[cosmos239]

I'm not in any way debating that rewards don't work in some children, maybe wasn't to clear on that. But swan, if the child doesn't understand that the attention they are getting from the parent is BECAUSE of a positive behavior Or absence of a negative one, then the attention won't alter the patterns of behavior, just stop it happening when the child it's distracted with parents attention. It won't alter the desire to behave in a particular way.
Also the idea that kids are premade to want attention seems true for typical children but if as an infant the attention they've received has been scary, or painful or inconsistent as with children who've experienced neglect / abuse / substance abusing or mentally unwell parents, then the child will have the idea reinforced via the feedback loop you speak of that parental attention is undesirable. Again this needs addressed first before parental attention can work as a reward to positively influence behavior.
Child development really is fascinating.

[Italiangreyhound]

I think the rewards and consequences thing is only a small part of parenting. My DD is my birth child and she has been quite a handful over the years. Better now but still some big 'tantrums' etc. Rewards and consequences can sometimes help in these situations to diffuse things a little, to make her aware of the depth of feeling I have about something. For example when she is beginning to kick off about something I might say that her behaviour could have a consequence (e.g. missing out on TV) and because she loves TV that may make her think and try and control the behaviour which is so troubling for me (and for her).

Yet alongside this there will be lots of conversations about all kinds of things, opportunities for her to tell me what is on her mind.

A lot of love and hugs and kisses, which she loves.

I would like to know from parents who don't use any reward incentives or consequences how they handle discipline generally.

I guess I also feel when the chips really are down and DD is really misbehaving then actually threats don't really work! We have to build up that constant relationship to enable her to grow herself and develop. I want her to be happy, healthy, to be all she can be. I don;t want to squash that natural part of her.... but we also have to all live together! It's a kind of balancing act isn't it.

I am very interested how I am going to cope with a new one!

Can anyone explain how no consequences works in terms of your child and other kids. Say the child hits another at toddler group. What do you do?

Thanks

[Swanhildapirouetting]

I think that is why we get confused about "rewards" Cosmos because naturally babies do get rewarded for doing the right thing, by their mothers smiling or patting them, or cuddling them. They get rewarded for communicating and seeking to have their needs met.

I think that is called "feedback loop". The greater the reward the more the likelhood of reinforcing positive behaviour. And it happens with infants, they smile to make you stop, you stop and smile, they smile more, you smile more, and pay them attention for longer. They are rewarded for smiling, so they smile more, and the carer loves them even more for smiling. A loop.

But the desire to survive overrides any need for rewards. And if you are driven to get attention at any cost or you cannot cope with extreme sensory overload or you just plain don't like something (food, noise, activity) or you are frightened and cannot bear to be left alone, presumably no reward or punishment would be more important than what you feel you need to do to survive (scream, refuse, spit, hide, run away, hit)

But I think the desire for carers' approval IS linked to survival. I think it is preprogrammed into us to want to be rewarded with love and attention. So if you can get children back to that primary reward circuit, which is that when the child communicates his/her needs, they are met other rewards become less important. But a sticker could be a sign that your carer is paying attention to you, and a star chart could be a means of interaction, and putting a marble in a jar could be a fun thing you do together. And sharing chocolate buttons could be a sharing of food. So in a sense all these rewards could "work" if they are used an expression of love and involvement rather than consequences of bad or good behaviour. I think that is why parents sometimes feel that they DO WORK.

[roadwalker]

I love Alfie Kohn
His book 'unconditional parenting' is what I aspire to
I can slip at times and I often re-read it
It makes so much sense. I do not believe children are 'naughty' and that behaviour is how they communicate so we should look behind the behaviour
I hate the reward system, it is everywhere and often children are rewarded for how they naturally are.
My BS has adhd and asd, of course I didn't know that when he was small but I knew he couldn't keep still. My friends son (same age) was a very quiet child. We would go places and people would comment on how 'good' my friends boy was and it drove me crazy, he just acted how he acted, neither good nor bad
The reward system is the same, it judges children and often ignores effort or conscious decision
IMO adults judge 'good' or 'bad' on how annoying the child is to them and i do not believe we live in a child friendly country

[cosmos239]

Sorry if this had been said already but my understanding of why star charts / rewards / consequences don't work with some adopted children is that they require the child to have an understanding of cause and effect in order to work. Babies learn the principle of cause and effect from their primary carers, usually birth Mum or dad. I.e if I cry... Then my Mum will come, if I move my face this way Mum smiles at me, if I make this funny noise my dad smiles/ talks to me etc.

Where children are neglected and don't receive these interactions or where the parental reaction is not predictable and consistent I.e where parents are at times under the influence of drugs / alcohol or have mental health issues, or learning disabilities that mean they can't react appropriately to a babies attempts to communicate... this awareness that a leads to b doesn't happen. The majority of children adopted in the UK come from these types of backgrounds. Therefore these children are missing a key developmental building block, any form I of discipline involving the word 'if' makes no sense to them they don't really think it will definitely happen. I.e if you tidy your room them you can get a treat, if you punch your brother again he.'ll not want to play with you.

Children who lack this cause and effect need intervention to get this in place before rewards or sanctions will work. In this way it is quite different to disciplining a child who has had typical development.