Help! Where do I start explaining the trans issue to male friend?

[peacelikeariver]

Just got into this with male friend who thinks it's nice to be kind and inclusive.
Sure is, but he is apparently clueless about all the trans issues/trampling all over womens right stuff.
Just send me links to scientific journals declaring sex is not binary( largely about intersex conditions).
Where do I start?
How do I explain?
I usually keep my mouth shut but this is a really good friend and I'm a bit shocked.

[lydiamajora]

As far as the intersex thing goes, there is one major difference between DSDs and trans identity: having a disorder of sexual development can be objectively verified. It is a falsifiable claim. Trans identity is entirely subjective and there is absolutely no way to weed out the predators from the genuine.

Send him info on Karen White. Make it very clear that you don't believe KW is actually transgender, but that allowing males to identify into female spaces has devastating consequences for women.

Men are generally going to "get" prisons and sports more than safety/privacy in toilets.

Don't flood him with info. In my experience, people respond better to drip-feeding.

Good luck!

[NewNameGuy]

Humans have 2 legs.
Some people don't, but that doesn't change the species.

Same with sex. You're male or female.

Point out self ID issues

Point out the obvious stereotypical sex cliches in trans people

[WomanBornNotWorn]

He might respond to images rather than stories and stats:

You could send him some of the 'pov if you're a terf' images, the baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire and the men bellowing at women trying to meet to defend their rights.

Then a few Riley Dennis 'feminine penis' videos berating lesbians.

And the selfie by the man exposing himself in a women's refuge.

[Imnobody4]

Sex is binary video about 10 mins clear explanation

[TheBlueStocking]

You could try not forcing your opinions on other people.

[MadamePewter]

It’s so difficult as it sounds so mad you must be making it up. With my boy and partner I’ve explained that they could just say tomorrow that they are a woman, no change other than that required, and then have access to all woman spaces: jails, changing rooms, toilets, refuges, medical care, and so on. After a bit of no, that can’t be true! they appreciate the point.

[lydiamajora]

Talking about something important to you with a friend equals "forcing your opinion" on them.

Okay.

[MadamePewter]

Oh, yes, and sport. They could play for the women’s team simply by declaring themselves a woman. Beards and penises included

[MadamePewter]

And @TheBlueStocking it’s not an opinion: biological sex is a fact

[TinselAngel]

Quite long but a brilliant introduction:

[TinselAngel]

Or if he'd rather read than watch:


sexandgenderintro.com/

[TheBlueStocking]

If someone is that interested, they'll find out for themselves. No need to bore your friend stupid.

@MadamePewter

It's also a fact that I wasn't the least bit interested in hearing you tell me that.

[LexMitior]

Well one very effective way is make a bare example. Think - what is that issue that they can relate to?

Your friend probably has never felt vulnerable as an adult. You need to get that person there by looking to empathise. You start with a very vague example, such as describing a situation where your friend is physically intimidated or asking them to recall that. You ask them about that feeling in confined space. This only works with those who are empathetic. But it is really effective if they are.

The TRA actually do this a lot. They insist on broad empathy and promote emotional engagement and then get all their demands in! And then some people attack that. Specific demands based on very specific arguments are far less good.

You will never win this way. Men often have very little idea of the day to day vulnerability of women. If you can get them to think of themselves in that way, by any means, you are halfway there.

[Ikeasucks]

Sport and Karen White

[MadamePewter]

@TheBlueStocking if you’re uninterested why on a thread....??

[lydiamajora]

BlueStocking - What a bizarre thing to say. Do you not talk to your friends about anything?

"If X was interested in that crazy snowstorm that happened in my town yesterday, they'd look up the weather were I live themselves."

[TheBlueStocking]

I don't sit my friends down for a PowerPoint presentation on My Views on Gender Politics, Shortly to Become Your Views on Gender Politics if You Ever Want the Slides to End.

My friends and I do this thing called having our own interests and opinions. It's very relaxing.

[peacelikeariver]

Thank you all so much.
He is very kind and understanding and inclusive in general and in fact has been quite vulnerable in the past. But I think the actual difficult issues with this have passed him by.
He assumed sex offenders in womens prison, transwomen in female sports and the cotton ceiling are hypothetical threats. Bless.
Sent him some links to clear that up.
Some links on why concerns about the trans movement are not the same as homophobia would be useful?

[lydiamajora]

I wasn't aware the OP was planning on holding said friend hostage and giving a PowerPoint presentation. Bad move there, OP - do not recommend.

[Imnobody4]

TheBlueStocking
You could try not forcing your opinions on other people.
That's a bit of do as I say, not what I do statement. Perhaps you meant no debate. I'm quite content to ignore your opinion.

[LexMitior]

Your friend sounds empathetic. Good. I’d leave it for now. He has something to think about.

The point being made by Bluestocking implicitly is a good one. We have to understand our friends, that they may not share all of our views. They don’t actually have to. But good friends normally listen and there is no actual reason to drill it down immediately, is there?

[lydiamajora]

I agree with Lex. See how he responds and go from there. If he is empathetic then he should be willing to engage with you even if he doesn't change his mind.

[OccasionalKite]

How would your male friend feel, personally, about being locked in a room with a person who is larger than himself, heavier than himself, stronger than himself. And the larger, heavier, stronger person also has a documented history of sexual violence towards people like himself.

Hmmm....

[Oldstyle]

If you think he might be concerned by children being medicalised & encouraged to have surgery in order to 'change sex', these two Swedish documentaries are excellent. No hyperbole, lots of clear information...

[ChakaDakotaRegina]

So you wouldn’t challenge a friends opinion that was sexist or racist or ageist? And that somehow makes you a great friend?

Anyway OP - Most people seem to be assuming it’s just toilets, that the person would at least try to pass as the new sex and think it’s a continuation of gay and lesbian rights. Maybe start with those three.