Another school uniform one - ties?

[LongPieceofString]

The trousers thread has prompted me to ask your opinions/advice.

DS is at a school where the new head changed the uniform and it has become 'compulsory' for boys to wear ties. This only applied to new starters this academic year so because he is not in the youngest year, he doesn't have to.

DD will hopefully be starting there in the next couple of years and it won't be compulsory for her to wear a tie, because she is a girl. I don't want the hassle of ties for school really (as they are really just something else to get dirty/lose etc).

But it is rubbish that they are compulsory for one sex and not another isn't it?

[ArtetasSwollenAnkle]

I agree, it is awful.

[DontputyourfingerinthejellyNel]

At my school (20 years ago) they changed the uniform and instead of just jumper shirt and trousers it was required that we wear a V- neck and a school tie. This was for everyone though.

[Martorana]

I particularly object to girls having to wear ties because it seems to me to be a tacit suggestion that education is something for boys that girls can have on sufferance. At least when a boy wears a tie it is actually something that adult men wear.

[RufusTheReindeer]

Compulsory at my children's school for both boys and girls

It was at my school in the 80's as well

I agree that it seems a bit stupid for girls to wear a tie as they wouldn't usually wear one as an adult, but most of the boys would refuse to wear one as well

A lot of offices are moving away from employees wearing ties

[Technical]

I don't get that at all Martorana

The policy on ties at my school was changed when I was at comp (30 years ago) Previously only boys needed to wear ties but the girls were still very much being educated.

The change was because of equality - everyone has to be treated the same

[ArtetasSwollenAnkle]

So, what do we think?

1. ties should not be compulsory for either,
   
2. ties compulsory for both,
   
3. compulsory for boys, not girls, or
   
4. something else?

[Martorana]

It's all about male being the norm, female the anomaly.

I think ideally no ties for anyone. But definitely no ties for girls, because they aren't part of an adult woman's dress.

[ArtetasSwollenAnkle]

But they are girls, not women, aren't they? And for as long as I can remember, ties are worn by girls at school. I am going back 40 years. I don't see how you can project adult norms onto children.

[Technical]

I don't think it is Martorana. It does make sense for boys to wear ties, they need to know what is appropriate for smart occasions as adults and they won't get that experience anywhere else. But, you can't make boys wear them if girls don't also because everyone has to be treated equally.

Personally I think school uniform should mirror what would be acceptable in a reasonably smart workplace , for both sexes, but that would make the boys' and girls' uniforms different which would never do.

[Martorana]

They were worn by girls going to school because that's what boys wore. Ties have never been a routine part of women's clothing.

[Technical]

No, exactly, that's my point. They weren't introduced as part of the uniform for girls in mainstream school until equality dictated that they should be.

[Martorana]

Technical- so that means that girls have to wear something they won't routinely wear in the workplace so that boys get to practice what they will?

[MsMischief]

I agree with Martorana re the implication being girls need to dress as boys in order to be educated but I am largely on the fence.

I think it's reasonable for boys to wear ties as adult men to largely wear ties.
Cheap white shirts are generally smartened up by a tie.
My dd likes wearing a tie.
I wear a tie more frequently than my male DP does (not for work-just because I look awesome in ties)
My teenage girl neighbour thinks her non-tie uniform is 'too girly'
I don't think girls should be forced into boys clothes so I don't want ties to be compulsory for girls.

In conclusion, I haven't got a clue where I stand on this.

[Martorana]

I don't think it is about equality- loads of schools have ties for boys and not for girls. Equality legislation allows for differentiation.

[Technical]

No, I'm not saying that at all. I think the uniforms for girls and boys should be different but whenever a school does that (or hasn't bowed to the pressure to make them the same) there's outrage from people insisting on equality.

[MsMischief]

I went to an all girls school which was founded over 300 years ago and has at no point in it's history admitted boys. Ties were part of our winter uniform. As were felt bowler hats, to be worn on three occasions a year. We looked like twats.

I agree that shoehorning girls into mens clothes to allow boys to practise at being men is perverse.

[Martorana]

Then why default to male? Why not default to female for once?

But as I said, lots of schools have ties for boys and not girls. I don't think equality legislation comes into it.

[RufusTheReindeer]

Our senior school suggested putting the girls into scarves, bit like some airline hostess uniforms

I wasn't keen on that idea myself, thought it would look awful, some boys would still complain that the girls didn't have to wear a tie and lots of girls would rather wear a tie

[MsMischief]

I would hate the scarfs. Ties are worn by businessmen. Scarfs are worn by uniformed service personnel.

[Technical]

Well, that is how this thread started...

[georgesdino]

All schools have to wear ties here. I used to get lines every day as I wouldnt wear mine as I cant tie them.

[LifeIsBetterInFlipFlops]

I think it's fine and just a reflection of smart workplace attire.

OP if you worked in an office where smart business dress was worn, would you wear a tie in the name of equality?

Honestly, I think you are reading too much into it.

[LongPieceofString]

Well I am glad at least that I am not the only one who doesn't really know where I stand on this! Will continue pondering. Scarves definitely make me think 'I am here to serve you' which is horrendous.

The organisation I work for used to sell logo-d ties, which male members would wear on the golf course, and every now and then start bleating on about scarves or brooches for the 'lady members' to make it fair. Until I arrived and scrapped the ties altogether

[LongPieceofString]

FlipFlops, good question - I sometimes dress smart for work but never a tie.

[mummytime]

I complained when they were going to remove ties for girls at DCs school. On two grounds mainly.
a) They give a special Honors tie for high achievement outside school (at least County level in Sports, Music, Dance or life saving). If girls didn't have a tie their achievements wouldn't be celebrated the same way.
b) The shirts they were going to change to (as well as ugly) have been made shorter by the stingy manufacturers, which means girls can't raise their arms without exposing their mid-riff. So most girls have to wear vests under them.

My children have all learnt to tie ties pretty quickly, but I think you can get clip ons too.