Coerced sex IS rape

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

This thread comes out of a discussion I had with a friend who didnt seem to think coerced sex is rape. I think coerced sex clearly is rape. If a man has to persuade, cajole and pester you for sex, you are not consenting. Non consensual sex is rape.

What do others think?

[Uppercut]

My girlfriend has persuaded me into having sex with her when I didn't want to. By your logic I was therefore raped, thus making me a 'rape survivor'.

I think you need to take this idea back to Research and Development...

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

EBAL, thank you for stating your opinion clearly in your OP this time.

Legally, the position is:

Section 74 defines consent as "if she agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice"

Does persuade, cajole and pester mean a non-free choice under the above definition? I am not sure that it does.

However, the goal of sex shouldn't be that it is 'not-rape-as-legally-defined'. SGM (and others) linked to a good blog in the past on the concept of enthusiastic consent. I'll try and track it down when I have time but have to work now.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

This thread is about women. Maybe uppercut we can have one thread in feminism that isnt about men?

[BertieBotts]

I don't think it's rape (unless the coercion is something like "I won't let you go/leave until you agree" or the coerced party fears violence if they refuse) if it's just whining and sulking and stropping or threats of breaking up and the coerced party makes the free choice that they'd rather have sex they don't really want than put up with this or lose the relationship.

However, it's not very healthy for the coercee and it displays a disgusting attitude on behalf of the coercer.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

If you want to have sex with a man why would you need to be persuaded?

[BertieBotts]

YY persuading is different to coercing. If DP wants sex and I'm not in the mood I'll either say something like "No I'm too tired" or "I could be persuaded into that" - and the persuasion will be something like a nice massage or a kiss or saying something that sets me off, and if it's not working, we forget it.

Coercing is more "But we haven't done it for ages" "I bet Steve's wife has had sex already since her baby was born" "Oh, I'm so unloved" "But look, what am I meant to do with this now?" "Come on, you'll like it when you get into it" etc etc.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I think coerced sex is rape.

I would never refer to persuasion as 'coersion', though.

There are a minority of people who can't tell the difference, or claim they can't tell - they're just doing the old, standard thing of twisting the truth, IMO. You know when you are being coerced and when you are consenting, and there cannot be any grey area.

[Treats]

I think there's a whole category of coerced sex that is equal in seriousness to rape, but isn't rape. Someone could consent to sex because they're fearful of the consequences of saying no, for example. Is there a separate criminal offence that would cover that scenario?

If not, then I would be happy to see it classified and prosecuted as rape, because it's just as bad.

I think - with the whining and sulking scenario - it's not the same. You still have a free choice that you're not going to indulge the wanker.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Saying you can be persuaded is fine. You are giving consent to your male partner to try.

[KRITIQ]

What Doctrine of Snatch and LRD said.

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Whining and sulking can wear women down. If your partner wants to have sex with you they will agree to have sex with you. If you have to whine and sulk, then she is not really interested - is she?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

treats - that's rape, IMO. If someone consents through fear, that is rape.

Whining and sulking are in the same category, as bertie has already said.

Saying 'might you feel in the mood if I give you a massage' is foreplay.

They really do not resemble each other. The idea that they do is a rape myth spread by rapists. IMHO.

[whistlestopcafe]

Please can you give an example of someone being coerced into sex which amounts to rape. I'm just finding it hard to
imagine the type of scenario.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

whistle - any scenario you could imagine, surely?

Threats of physical violence
Threats to leave the person/withdraw financial support for children
Threats to 'pay them back' if they don't consent

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Treats- that would be covered under the legal definition by the woman not having the freedom to make the choice, so that wouldn't be consent.

[Mydogsleepsonthebed]

I am quite sure that persuading cajoling and pestering for sex goes on in all types of sexual relati

[Mydogsleepsonthebed]

Fat fingers. Phone.

In all types of relationships whether those are heterosexual, gay or lesbian or any other kind you choose.

[samandi]

Simply being pestered for sex is not the same as forced sex, no. With the former, the person being pestered has the option to leave. Obviously, if there are threats of violence as another poster has pointed out, the situation is different.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

It's not rocket science, is it?

If what you say/do to your partner is likely to make them feel turned on and happy, you are probably on the right lines. Congratulations!

If what you say/do to your partner is likely to make them feel upset/shite/nagged at, you are probably not. Back to square one for you.

We all surely know when we're turned on and when we're not.

[whistlestopcafe]

Yes I would agree that all of those situations you describe are rape FeministDragon. Whether a court would agree is another issue.

I suppose I was looking at from a personal perspective where I have had sex despite not really wanting to which is not the same at all.