Graveney School

[Caramelcamel]

My daughter just showed me tweets about this school. Students have come forward with all sorts of information of its treatment of BAME students and its behavior/pastoral care towards some of its non white students?

Does anyone have children in this school? Can you offer insight?

[happyhippo82]

anecdotally it definitely was even when I was a school kid twenty years ago....things may have changed in the intervening years but I wouldn't be surprised. I guess that it's liked on MN because you need tutoring to get in and thereafter students stay in 'their' groups through the streaming system. Now why the parents don't just pay for a private school or move to an area with grammar schools - no idea.

[Soma]

There are three Instagram pages, one about the racism at the school and the other two relating to sexual harassment and mental health issues.
@graveneystoriesofracism
@graveneystoriesofsexism
@graveneystoriesofmentalhealth

It doesn't make for good reading.

[AveEldon]

There is also a petition www.change.org/p/graveney-students-past-and-present-and-wandsworth-residents-change-the-streaming-system-at-graveney-school - I'm a bit confused about this as I thought the streaming is determined by SATs and Wandsworth Test results. I didn't think interviews had any input into the process.

The school has a statement on their website www.graveney.org/

[dameofdilemma]

Graveney has a particular approach in that it offers 70 of the 280 places to those scoring highest in the entrance exam.

This differs from the banding approach adopted by other secondary schools in the area which ensures a fairer spread of abilities are offered places.

Whatever else is going on at Graveney, its maximising its chances of better results by creaming off those best at doing well at exams (which may well be those most likely to be supported at home, tutored etc). Essentially an academically selective school then, in part.

Whether that's attractive or appalling in a state school depends on your point of view.

[c00k1e]

Ive been following this closely. My child is starting there in September, as things stand currently I regret choosing this school.

I am waiting to hear what action the school takes against this allegations. And; if need be will pull my child out.

[Cheesypea]

Its sad that their focus isnt more about serving the local community.

[AveEldon]

They do serve the local community - 210 places are for local kids

TBH I'd expect similar allegations to occur in most London schools. That doesn't make it acceptable but is this school worse than others?

[Soma]

Definitely worse than other schools, and in particular ,schools in Tooting / Balham. Friends are pleased that they declined their offers and went else where.

[TootingBECkons]

Not surprised to see this petition.

I have had a child in Graveney 6th Form and in another favoured S London Comp, and I have worked (not as a teacher, as a visiting project) in other nearby S London Comprehensives.

I was shocked by the segregation at Graveney - the strong middle class white cliques in Extension and top sets in 6th form getting favourable focus and treatment. There was only one black kid in one of my DC's classes, and this is in S London, FGS.

My Dc was shocked by some really blatant events. A black student disappeared immediately following a drugs discovery (fair enough), a white student was given a minor sanction after an equivalent offence.

Some years ago there was a major incident, police called to a mass fight in the playground. Years later there was ongoing pupil unrest about the favourable treatment given to a white student who caused serious injuries to another pupil with minimal sanction - and then continued in the school feeling free to make racist comments.

The class issue starts with the families (including from miles away) tutoring at great expense for a selective place. These are 'super selective' - they go to the top scorers, not just those who pass at a certain level. So those who can afford tutors for bright kids are at a strong advantage.

Then, perceiving it as the school where aspiring m/c families go, other economically advantaged families rent property nearby to get the remaining places that are given on distance. The school does nothing about this.

So the intake is white m/c way out of proportion to the local community. And the top sets are full of these kids.

Class divide becomes race divide - that is the way institutional racism works.

My Dc was shocked at the lack of diversity in the top sets - totally different to the school they did GCSEs at, a school which is high achieving with an excellent 6th Form too, but diversity wise the top sets are in ratio with the school and with the local area. Not the case at Graveney.

Also my Dc was shocked at the way the extension classes are supported and celebrated (great, of course) but middle and lower sets pretty much ignored and students not so well supported. This had not been the case at the former school where all kids were supported to do as well as possible.

Plus it is an 'old school' sort of school, staff and SLT been there ages, all cosy with their reputation.

I was impressed with the education on offer, but not with the communication from the school, the cliqueyness, or the massive drug use fuelled by lots of pupils with lots of money and liberal pushy parents in the media who are cool with their teens smoking dope at home. And the rest.

It is a good school, teaching is good, behaviour is good. Projects such as STAGS and other opportunities are ambitious. But this issue is real. And I hope that the school will take it seriously, be brave, be open and use it as a moment to make some real changes.

However.....the school was due to meet students to discuss these issues, yesterday morning, I think, or Tuesday. They then cancelled the meeting because they realised they had organised it without a Safeguarding lead present, and hadn't checked availability, so cancelled. The young people involved are upset and frustrated, feel this is typical. This can't be treated in a tokenistic manner.

[TootingBECkons]

Yes, @AveEldon it is different, worse, than in other S London schools.

And the 210 places are not all for local kids. See the unchecked renting situation.

And what is so frustrating is that it is all such an Emperor's New Clothes. Graveney is a 'good comprehensive'. There are lots of good comprehensives in Lambeth, Wandsworth and Merton (surrounding boroughs). The mad competition for Graveney is self-exacerbating.

But then the evidence for all selective education is shaky, to say the least, compaed to good education in good comps that do well by everyone.

Unfortunately the hype and competitive behaviour around Graveney actually ends up making it less good - who wants their child to be on either side of an elitist divide?

[AveEldon]

@TootingBECkons I believe Wandsworth checks the council tax records and if people already own property and move temporarily the council uses the original address. I think this change occurred in the last 5 years but I can't find a link right now

[TootingBECkons]

Does Wandsworth have access to CT records for other boroughs?
I know and know of 5 pupils currently in the school due to relocating to a short term rental. Two families near us were actually reported but nothing happened.

Then the effect balloons: younger siblings in that family get places in future years while the rental flat enables a new family every year to put one child and subsequent siblings in.

Also, the current admissions policy is to allow siblings of selective place students ahead of ‘distance’ . So if each selective place student has one or two siblings you can see how that impacts on ‘local’ places. I can see no justification for giving priority admissions to siblings of selective places. And it just exacerbates the divide in the demography.

Suits the schools stats tho’.

[AveEldon]

I agree that the sibling priority impacts on the number of local places available

[happyhippo82]

I also think that at least in part it is a bit disingenuous of people being surprised at this. The whole rationale for Graveney over the last few decades (i.e. since it lost its grammar schools status) is that 'naice' mc families in that part of London (who could not or didn't want to go private) could transplant their children into a school in Tooting in which they could still hang out with their own kind.

The problem with kids is that they are often less able to maintain the polite pretence of it all and basically call it what it is.....yes, its structural racism and class segregation - the fact that this is being done within the same physical space is even more shocking. One could say that at least in Surrey, they have the manners to literally put kids into different schools.

But seeing as strictly speaking parents themselves chose it for those same structural reasons why is anyone surprised that the kids are just a little less polite about it.

[NewModelArmyMayhem18]

Always remember being shown around the school by a former Dulwich College school boy (sixth former) - enough said. He turned up in tails to show prospective pupils and parents around (WTF?).

Have heard that 'Extension' is nurtured to the exclusion of the other sets.

Not a school that either of mine was keen on, thankfully.

[marytuda]

I disliked this school intensely when I visited ca 2 years ago; the way it crowed over results while underplaying its selective intake, apologised for its physical shabbiness to parents Obviously fresh from inspecting posher facilities; and making no apology for actively courting families who had 'demonstrated their commitment' to this superior school by shelling out a fortune for prep school fees/private tutors. It seemed to represent everything that is wrong with our selective/segregated school system, and what I'm reading here only confirms that.
One thing though - at least they never called themselves comprehensive. That too was glossed over (anyway wouldn't have appealed to the private/grammar-enthusiast cohort they were obviously courting.)

[ComeBy]

The points the young people have made in the petition are well argued, but don't go far enough. The root of the problem is in the admissions policy:

Having a super-selective stream that attracts competitive middle class parents that use their money to tutor
Thus setting up a culture where people want to rent to get in and use their middle class money to rent a flat.
Allowing siblings of the selective places a priority, thus admitting more children of pushy middle class families to take up places that should be allocated on distance.

If they are confident in their teaching, and that they can get good results for all pupils, they shouldn't need to want to up their stats with 70 super selective places, they should have the confidence of other good comps and provide a good education regardless.

The selective intake needs scrapping, and replacing with, at the most, 'fair banding' - or just a community school admissions policy.

This would sort it.

Alongside a really honest and deep look at the accusations of racism. facilitated by an outside advisory team, and welcomed as a progressive move for the school.

(Parent of sixth former, shocked by the drug use amongst the middle class pupils - far higher than the students at our 11-16 school which had actual gangs!).

[AveEldon]

Many schools have selective intakes across Wandsworth....
Ashcroft
Burntwood
Chestnut Grove
Ernest Bevin
St Cecilia's
All allocate some places on the basis of ability/aptitude tests

[happyhippo82]

@AveEldon - that list does not undermine the argument or accusation of structural racism - a)it just means that it's more of a borough-wide problem, b) even on that list certain schools are seen as more desirable by a certain type of parents e.g. Ashcroft v Graveney.....case in point. Comparable results (actually Ashcroft has better value-added) - but lets be honest most people on MN and Wandsworth mainly right post about getting into the one but not the other.....

Should Graveney deal with it - yes, but are they good enough to get the same results without this system - probably not. Will they probably sort it out - unlikely for who wants to lose their lovely reputation.

Why dont mc parents in Wandsworth/London try and change things on the macro level and honestly say - we've been priced out of private schools and the state system is crap so how can we make it better for everyone.......therein lies the politics of class, race and gender

[ComeBy]

The selective intake of 70 at Graveney is 25%.

As opposed to 24 aptitude places(technology) out of 210 admissions at Ashcroft, and a total of 60 places at Chestnut Grove for art and design and MFL.

Burntwood offers 78 out of 310 places on the test score, but somehow has not attracted the huge competition from white middle class families that Graveney has - possibly because as a girls school it attracts a high proportion of Asian families. Which in itself tells us something.

The point about 'aptitude tests' is that they are supposed to gauge aptitude rather than accomplishment, so that students who have had access to lots of extra curricular art or technology or language tuition are in theory not at an advantage over those who have not. At Grey Coat, for example, they do not even test MFL aptitude with existing languages, but use a made up code language. At Kingsdale the music aptitude test is not a piece played on an instrument, it is testing ear, sense of rhythm etc.

So arguably aptitude tests have much less potential to be 'swung' be people who can afford tutoring. Arguably technology, for example, is of a wider appeal than some of the families that tutor for Graveney.

Art is less dependent on the cognitive abilities tested in the 11+ so the Chestnut Grove aptitude admission would be less likely to have an impact on the academic streaming / setting in the school.

Personally I am not in favour of any special priority places, but I can see they are a useful tactic when trying to turn a school around and attracting a wider spectrum of students.

The young people who have led this campaign (which was ignited by a truly dreadful racist video originally put on SM by a few pupils) deserve to be heard and taken seriously. The allegations need to be looked at. Brushing it off does the pupils a disservice and leaves the school open to ongoing allegations.

[marytuda]

It was 21 places for technology aptitude at Ashcroft out of 210 (so 10%) two years ago.
But the % isn't the point. The point is for that tech-aptitude test kids were in and out in an hour! Other 'aptitude' tests at other schools round about were similar; absolutely no prep expected or required.
In complete contrast to the Wandsworth Test, Graveney's 11 + in all but name; 2 and a half hours intense pressure and frankly traumatic for any ill-advised child who really was completely unprepared for it.
My (untutored) DC, perfectly happy after a handful of 'aptitude' tests (some successful, others not) came out of taking the Wandsworth test (surrounded, by the way, by almost 100% white-prep-schooled kids - in inner south London!) looking grim and going, please Mum, never again . .

[Natalia175]

I do not want to comment about allegations about Graveney as do not know the school, but can comment on the Wandsworth test.
@marytuda, Wandsworth test takes place in your local state school (if children are in Wandsworth), so it is not really stressful at all and feels like any other regular and ordinary tests they do. Not sure why you had to sit it elsewhere? Maybe because you are not in Wandsworth or go to a private school? This is why you would be surrounded by prep-schooled kids, all other stake kids in Wandsworth sit it in their school.
You can not really tutor for Wandsworth test as it tests aptitude. Any one can spend £5 to buy CGP How to do Non verbal reasoning and Verbal reasoning text books, better than any tutor if you want to practice . Many state Wandsworth schools go through these books in July/September before the test just to familiarise. I once met a girl from very disadvantage background who just nailed this test with very high score without any practice. When asked how she did so well, she said 'It was just so easy'.

[Sweetnhappy1]

@Natalia175 our state school in Wandsworth does zero preparation for the Wandsworth test and I know quite a few Wandsworth state school children who have had tuition for this test. I agree with everything else you said though. It wasn't at all stressful because they all just did it at school, there wasn't any choice about it.

[marytuda]

We are not in Wandsworth but a neighbouring borough. A small group from my DCs state primary Y6 class (just the, erm, 4 or 5 white middle class ones - and us) went to a Wandsworth school on a Saturday to take it. Virtually everyone else there was white - a v weird feeling round here - and many very obviously, from the way they were talking, prep-school, though realistically some like us must also have come from neighbouring-borough state primaries.
My DC was happy to meet up with his classmates on a Saturday - another playdate! I think only the Saturday before the same group had all quite enjoyed doing the fun aptitude assessment at Chestnut Grove. But the reality this time was totally different. It must be hard for those who take years of 11+ prepping for granted to imagine what it's like to be confronted aged 10 in a strange place with a series of totally baffling test questions for the first time under intense time pressure for hours on end. You can judge me if you like for not prepping; I had only found out about the test just before registration deadline and had no idea what it entailed. In my naivety I thought the 11+ was phased out in the 1970s . . Ha ha!

[eglantine7]

When I visited the school for an open day in 2019, a TEACHER I got chatting to suggested I could rent near the school to get my daughter in. Just goes to show how rampant it is.
This school has serious issues and I would be very aware if sending your child there. In fact I got chatting to a mum around the time i was visiting whose daughter had scored highly on the WT ( no tutioring just a clever girl who practiced herself in the summer) and turned away a selective place at Graveney for another school Bollingbroke where she is so happy and thriving. Why?? I asked her. She was a black woman who had grown up in South London and although she didnt say racism, she said Graveey was a stuffy and rigid place and couldn't see her child being happy there.
In 2020 when the stories came out, it all made sense. I would also give the school a wide berth. No offence to all the lovely children, families and staff there who are not complicit but the whole set up of that school is ODD.