Nothing left to salvage

[changedmynameforthis]

I've changed my name for this because somehow even under your pseudonym you begin to feel "known" and this is somehow too close to the bone.
Dh and I have been together for 7.5 years and have one ds who is almost 22 months old and another baby on the way (first trimester, have not had a scan yet).
Before ds our relationship was always an up and down one, now since ds there has been what is probably a steady deterioration with lots of downs under the pressures of childcare, and not so much time for each other. Since becoming pregnant again things have taken a decided turn for the worse with things today seeming totally unchangeable. I have probably been quite harsh with dh recently but I was appalled at how little compassion / and or willingness to help me he has shown me in the light of morning sickness, or should one say "all day sickness". I let the house completely deteriorate but then seeing as he lives here too he could have taken over some of it? I do have a history of being messy which he has always found very difficult but I had fairly recently got things on an even keel managing to do quite a lot while ds sleeps in the mornings.
Dh thinks all women change for the worse when they have children... he has seen this in two of his sisters, other women and now me he says. Things have got to the stage now where we are fighting a lot of the time (or not speaking properly) though not all the time, and are both very focussed on ds and ignoring each other. This is especially the case with dh who lavishes attention on ds kissing and cuddling him all the time and telling him he is "his" baby and how wonderful he is. I am very affectionate with ds as well but less intensely, also because I see him more. I am glad ds is hearing all these lovely things from his father but what I find difficult is how little physical affection dh shows me (obviously at the moment none because we are not talking)... he will kiss ds goodbye as I am holding him and totally ignore me. He once said I had "had my turn". So it got to the stage where we were only having cuddles in bed. Since having morning sickness however I have been unable to jump around between my bed (ds and I co-sleep) and dh's and so have hardly been in dh's bed at all so there is no physical contact at all. I feel like a hated necessity in my own home. I definitely feel "second" best...
We never resolve our fights by talking about them but by letting time pass (this is very much the style in dh's family, one sister and him haven't spoken to each other at all for years). Dh has suggested other people go to counselling but would never go himself. I truly think he thinks I am a selfish person whom he wants as little as possible to do with and he is going to concentrate on ds who is a very very nice person. (Which he is, absolutely, but I am not the evil evil person dh thinks I am).
The thing is how does one know if one should call things a day?? And what on earth does that mean anyway with one son and another baby on the way? I would like things to work out but I do not want to spend the next 20 years feeling disliked or demeaned. I do have to change the way I do some things but I think I "deserve" a loving relationship as much as the next person.
Obviously I have left loads out about how we interact and what dh finds difficult about me, but I think at the core of some of my behaviour (eg. I never make him tea) is how unloved or unappreciated I feel by dh. It has been especially hard with me feeling sick as a dog and him being totally unsympathetic about it.
It looks doubtful that our relationship can survive another baby unless we change a lot of things and I don't know that we have the stamina. We seem to want different things. Recently dh mentioned something about MIL coming to live with us and I would find this very difficult...
Also, I should mention that dh is divorced... I can feel history repeating itself.
I feel very trapped.. the way I have being doing things with ds is very "attachment parenting" with the result that I am still breastfeeding so feel that I have very little freedom. Obviously now I am going to have to wean him. I feel very much like ds's backdrop and nothing else to very few people really. I'm sure if dh and I saw less of each other (dh often works from home) and had more time to do other things, things would be easier. Both my family and his live far away so we have none of that kind of babysitting available.
I'm just shocked by how aggressive dh has been with me recently, it seems that real hate backs what he is saying.
He gets very annoyed if I tell him things about ds yet he will do the same thing and that's okay??? This evening the fallout was because ds asked to "see the motorbike" that he could hear outside and dh said that "when he was bigger he could ride a motorbike", so I said something about how he should have said the "motorbike had gone" which is after all the real answer to ds's question; and he went ballistic. Yet just earlier when I had been asking ds if he wanted beans and rice for dinner, dh told me not to ask him and just give it to him....
All sounds very pathetic doesn't it???
Dh got very annoyed with me at the beginning of morning sickness because I was only getting food for myself (and ds when ds wasn't doing it) but I don't think he understood that I was kind of staggering to the kitchen to find the nearest thing to eat so that I wouldn't puke... I feel better now (sickness is manageable in the day but worse in the evening) so am trying to fix food for everybody when I cook. He also got annoyed that I didn't want to eat his food when I was feeling unwell, again he just doesn't get it, some things are appealing, others things are just not...
Anyway, I could go on and on about our relationship but better stop here, congratulations for reading this far and I hope you haven't fallen asleep!!!!

[Chinchilla]

Wow! Managed to read it all...I can only say that you sound a lot like dh and I are some of the time. I'm not pg, and I wonder if a lot of your emotion on this subject is because of the p/nancy? Men cannot empathise about morning sickness, as they never get anything reaching the enormity of pregnancy.

It sounds like both of you have got lost in the mire of the first child (been there, and am currently suffering!) in that all of your love and attention has been taken by the child, leaving none for each other. I am in the same boat, and this is partly the reason that dh does not want us to have another one. He thinks (and I half agree) that we would end up divorced, as we have nearly managed it with only ds around!

No advice, but much sympathy. Actually, maybe get your parents to have your child for a night, get him merry, and force him to talk to you about everything? It might open things up. Only you and he can resolve this.

[Chinchilla]

Ooh, yes. Write a letter to him. Not an agressive one (i.e. 'YOU do this', but one that just lets him know what you are feeling. I do this with dh, as he is very good at twisting things, and I get tongue tied. I let him know what I think is his/my problem, and he reads it without being able to comment. When he has digested it, he usually sees that I have a valid point to make, and he hasn't been able to win points for the sake of it, like he would have done during an argument.

Juat a thought. It might not work for you or be appropriate in this situation.

[Chinchilla]

No smiley intended

[sykes]

Having got recently (well about 3.5 months ago) with two small dds I don't know what to say. He had an affair and left us. It's been v hard but things are getting better for me - not for dds, very sadly, I'd really push for counselling - IF you get the right counsellor. And if your h doesn't want to do it, it will be v hard to make him. Children do complicate relationships and we found it v hard going from one to two. Not sure what I'm trying to say but I wish I'd sought help and been more open with h about the situation - ie, it's really hard and if you stop communicating you get distracted from what is important and it turns into, perhaps, a bigger issue than it should be.

[mammya]

Poor you, it sounds like you are in a very bad place in your relationship at the moment. Are you really positive your DH would not go to counselling? I understand what you say about you not resolving things by talking about them, my family is like that, but IMO it's really important you manage to somehow communicate with him about how you feel, otherwise things will never get better. How about writing him a letter? How do you think he would respond to that? Also a letter gives you time to organise your thoughts and say things in a calm manner, which can be difficult to do when you're very upset, and being hormonal and pregnant doesn't help...
Sorry I can't be of more help, I really want to give you a hug. Sending you a cyber one {{{{hug{}}}}}

[doormat]

changedmynameforthis I agree with all the other postings.
Reading between the lines of your post it seems to me that you both need to start spending some time together.
I think you should firstly get your ds in his own bed or cot.OK things may not happen in the bedroom if ds goes in his own bed or cot but at least the two of you will have your own PRIVATE space. I think this is important as your lives seem smothered by your ds (I am not saying that is wrong) but you both need some me time and our time away from ds.If you dont have babysitters available, our time could consist of a nice hot bath together with a bottle of wine when ds is tucked away in bed.
As for the housework, maybe he is asking MIL to stay to help you.He must see that you are not coping very well and maybe trying to help you.
Also looking at the situation from his side he could feel unloved, unwanted and unappreciated also.Being pg alot of men dont understand how we feel ie sick, tired, hormonal etc unless we explain it to them until we are blue in the face.
If you cant face housework get a cleaner or get MIL to stay, until you are ready to cope on your own.
You both need to communicate your needs to eachother without arguing about it. HTH.

[Janstar]

I fear there is no magic solution to this - it sounds to me as if the two of you are crying out for counselling - a way of learning to put resentment down and really talk to each other. But if he refuses to go, what can you do?

I am so sorry you are going through this. My ex made me feel disliked etc as your dh is doing to you, when I was pregnant with dd2. I know how acutely painful it is and I wish I could give you a hug.

Don't let his attitude wring all the energy out of you. Don't ever be tempted to believe his assessment of you. I have to say that in retrospect of my own experiences, I would split with him if I were in this kind of situation. I can't see how his behaviour will ever change otherwise. If you forced the issue perhaps he would relent and go to counselling. However - that is my feeling and may not be yours. But whatever you do, don't let this drag on for years until you are too demoralised even to know what you want and need any more. Better for children to have one sane, happy parent than two sour and emotionally exhausted ones.

I really feel for you and hope it all gets better soon.

[Bumblelion]

Oh changedmynameforthis (cmyft), I feel so much for what you are going through. I went through the same thing while pregnant with DD2 (child #3) and actually posted on here in August 2001 with a post entitled "should I stay or should I go" whilst 7 months pregnant - things were that bad that I was considering leaving my H with two children and a baby on the way. I am sorry to say that we didn't work it out and things came to a head in February 2002 when our marriage ended. Mine is not a good experience as I can't say that I have been there, done it and actually things are okay now. Actually, I can say that as things are very okay now except that I am no longer with my H, although not formally divorced yet.

It is such a horrible thing to be going through and you have my total empathy. If I think back to how I felt, I know that I never ever want to feel like that again. I felt unloved, unwanted, unliked and they are such horrible emotions. He used to tell me I was selfish, a horrible person, etc. but I suppose I ought to put in the fact that it me that had the affair in 1998 and we tried to make the marriage work. It was only when I fell pregnant with my much wanted third child that my H realised that he couldn't forgive me and that is why I went through such a horrible time.

I really, really hope you can work it out if that is what you want. If that is not what you want, don't think you won't ever find happiness again and I reiterate what Janster says about children growing up in a loving family, albeit if their parents are not together. As long as your children grow up knowing they are loved and wanted, they will be fine.

[SoupDragon]

I agree with Doormat - move your DS into his own room. This may not be a magic solution but (again agreeing with doormat!) you need private "adult" space. The pressures of caring for a child do mean that the other half ( from both points of view!) gets shoved down the ladder a bit.

What did you enjoy doing together before DS arrived? Can you farm DS out to family occasionally and do those things again?

I hope you sort things out soon. Hugs,

[Boe]

I agree with Doormat - you need some time together with your DH, if you are doing this attachment parenting and he is being pushed out maybe his reaction is to try and smother your child with love also. I am not sure I am explaining this properly but maybe he feels you are giving everything to your child and so he is - to make and impact on the child and to sort of teach you a lesson - doing the same thing.

With another baby on the way maybe this has escalated because he sees that you are going to be 'attached' to another baby for a considerable amount of time.

I do think you need to talk though - you can go to counselling on your own, just sitting and talking about a problem does not make it go away but a different (professional) input is good to have and may help you approach the situation differently and may help you communicate what is happening in a more sensitive way.

I am not really a good person to give advice on this - x2b was it seems like your DH and was completely unsympathetic about anything I was going through - he thought I should be the good dutiful wifey and just serve him, I think sometimes a short sharp shock works - could you not pack up and leave for a couple of days - go visit a friend or drop your child at a relatives and just go away alone to get your thoughts in order??

Sorry probably not much help but I do hope that things improve - whatever happens you have to be strong and try and talk about the way you are feeling - ask him to help with the chores and when you are feeling a bit better make up a few dinners and freeze them - that way you can always stick a casserole in the oven and he will be none the wiser that you are not being the dutiful wife (not really an answer but may take pressure off you for a while.)

Good luck XXX

[zebra]

It's wrong that somebody's husband should believe that women "change for the worse" as a result of having children. He sounds like he doesn't actually like women at all, frankly. I think the affection and attention (co-sleeping) you both bestow on your DS is a sign of how much both of you love him and don't want him to be hurt by the awful relationship you have as man & wife.

Also alarms me how jealous CHANGEDMYNAMEFORTHIS is of the affection her DH gives their son; my mom was jealous of the closeness I had with my dad and her jealousy only served to drive me away from her.

They say that even the longest journey starts with a single step. I wonder if, if he won't go to Counselling, Is there one small area where you could try to work with your DH to compromise? Maybe discuss a rota for making tea. If you can communicate on that, and come to a resolution, then maybe you can tackle some of the other "petty" problems, by a little communication and compromise. This will be practise, rebuilding your relationship from the ground up, and work towards tackling "big" issues between you. The thing is, often when you find a process for sorting out the "petty" problems, the big problems start to solve themselves.

[Jenie]

I don't have any advice (sorry) but all of the other advice sounds great, I'm very lucky in so much as I've never been in your situation so don't feel authorised to advise you either way. I don't think that the initial reasons behind the arguments are the real reasons your fighting though, I think that they are just a way of manefesting other "problems?".

I don't think that you should be made to feel unloved or unwanted especially whilst your pregnant. I think that it sounds as though your doing a great job coping with morning sickness and looking after a young child all day. And that he is big enough to lookafter himself and take on some of the household responsibilites.

You should start giving yourself some credit for all of the things that you do and achieve everyday. My dp thinks it's great if I get a load of washing done! I'm not very housework orientated, but he knows that I spend the day playing with the children and looking after their needs.

As I said I have no advice on what you should or should not do but I do think that you need to re-build your confidence. Sending you a big cyber hug and wishing you all the best.

[sykes]

Changedmyname - do you think you can make progress? How are you feeling? Thinking of you.

[aloha]

Agree you seem locked in a power struggle. Not talking for days is horrible for all of you including your ds. Why don't you make him tea? He does sound like he says horrible, hurtful things, which is indefensible, but I imagine he's also feeling hurt and rejected by you - you want cuddles, he wants you in bed with him, presumably. His way of feeling loved is to 'do stuff for each other' - your way of feeling loved is to be cuddled and paid compliments. So when you reject his food, or don't cook for him (for good reasons sometimes, which you admit he probably doesn't understand), I suspect it hurts him in just the same way as it hurts you when says nasty things. It sounds as if you have very different ways of expressing and experiencing love and can't see each other's point of view. If he really won't go to counselling - and I think the shock of your really telling him that you are thinking of splitting up and that will mean he will see less of his child might change his mind - can you not go alone at least to start with to think through your options here. I'm not anti divorce - I wish my parents had divorced years and years earlier than they did - but I do think you aren't certain about this yet and you might benefit from talking to a neutral third party about all this who might be able to give you some ideas and strategies to improve matters. Of course you deserve a loving relationship and it is hard to do nice things for someone you resent, but maybe if you do want to see if you have a future as a family one of you has to break the deadlock and maybe it has to be you - if that doesn't work then maybe you do know you have nothing left to salvage.

[Janstar]

aloha, I think your post is really insightful.

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

[Bugsy2]

cmnft, I'm so sorry to hear of the troubles you are going through. I really do believe that you and your dh need to try and break the deadlock and really communicate. Your dh may not even realise he is acting harshly towards you, some men seem to be lacking on empathy sometimes.
Be very careful how you proceed, I would strongly urge you to try and refind the love you once had together. This would not be a good time to find yourself on your own. I support all the advice you have been given here about spending time together - it is really, really important.
I wish you the very best.

[Clarinet60]

Dear changedmynameforthis, I've been to bed then come down again as I'm haunted by some of the other posters on here and how they seem to have misunderstood you. I know how you feel because I went through the same with DH when I was pregnant with DS2. Why should you 'make his tea' when you are feeling so ill? He should be making yours! As for the housework, presumably he has all his faculties and is not ill so why can't he get it done? (Meaning, don't feel guilty, you shouldn't be doing it anyway, IMO).

I didn't read any jealousy in the way you describe your husband's affection for your child. Men sometimes use this affection as a way of niggling and belittling you.

I also know the feeling of not resolving anything, just letting time pass. DH refuses to talk about our problems and when I force him into it, we end up having a huge row, as he's not logical about it at all. He's incoherent and nasty. So just 'sitting down and talking' with someone who is acting as destructively as your DH is not always a solution. Chinchilla's idea of getting him merry and having a good chat might work, but IME, men just seem to think, phew, she's calmed down again, leave a few days grace, then go back to doing exactly as they like. I think his comment about women changing for the worse after children shows that he simply does not get it.

I think it would be lovely to find the love you once had together, but I don't think you are the one who lost it. I think showing him this thread, although extreme, might shock him into realising exactly how his behaviour is affecting you. I think you've tried everything else. I'm sorry I have no other advice, but if you find something that works, I'd be grateful if you'd let us know, then I can try it.

Hugs.

[ThomCat]

I know what Droile is saying but I agree with everyone else too. Someone has to start being nice to the other one or it's just going to escalate. If you are the one who breaks the vicious circle hopefully he'll follow suit and be nice back and then just try and maintain being as nice as you can to each other. You need to get out of the rut you are in and someone has to be the first to climb out, what does it matter who it is as long as one of you pulls the other out?
The longer it goes on the more you'll resent each other. Go out for the day somewhere, anywhere, get in the car and drive, go and visit a castle or a country house, be tender with him and hopefully he'll be tender back. I really do know how you feel, I have been there. You do need to re-set the scales, or someone does and why not you? I really hope it's all OK, you don't need this. Good luck and lots of love and a hug {{{{{{{}}}}}

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

[aloha]

Bloss, I agree totally. My dh gives me more than I deserve, over and over again. And I try to do the same for him. Actually he is much better at apologising than I am (surprise!). I think your point about not giving people what they deserve, but treating them as well as you can as much as you can, is a very good one, especially if you want a marriage to continue. I also agree that this man hasn't always acted kindly. Why should you make tea for someone you are angry with? Well if you are making one for yourself it's just quite nice and polite, and it obviously means an awful lot to some men. My dh said it was one of the main ways he felt loved by me - he would be desperately hurt if I didn't do it. It's not criticism of CMNFT, just a suggestion.

[changedmynameforthis]

Thank you everybody for all your messages. I have been really touched by the response and it has given me lots of food for thought. I will respond more in detail later as it is quite interesting, but for now just to let you know that dh and I are being civil to each other but also quite careful which is not a bad thing... too much familiarity too soon will just lead us down the same garden path again.
I'll write more later but for now I've got to go and do housey things as ds is sleeping.
Thanks again.

[Lucy124]

How horrible changedmynameforthis with your DH being so unsupportive.

Thing is, reading your post, I was wondering if your DH feels a bit threatened. You seem to have a very physical mother (probably doesn't sound right). By co-sleeping with your nearly 2 year old DH might feel a little bit pushed out of your marriage in a phisical way. With the knowledge that a new baby is on the way he might be wondering where they hell he is going to fit in at all.

Maybe DH's agressive manner towards you is more of a confused protest and his contradictory style of parenting is just his way of asserting himself towards his son (who he may see as being very much "your" child to you if that makes sense).

We have the same problem re: family living far away but ask your friends (especially the broody ones!) and someone will babysit I'm sure. We've had 3 nights out since DS was born 17 months ago but once he's in bed, in his own room then the time is ours so it's fine.

Personally if I were you I would wean this child and get him settled in his own room and "reclaim the marital bed" (ha ha). Absolutely fair play for breastfeeding for so long and I'm sure you get as much out of it as DS does - but it could be making your relationship suffer.

You see you've said "obviously now I have to wean him" but (and this is a big assumption as I don't know you) I bet you've not discussed this with DH. Being a bloke he's probably got this image of you suckling a 3 year old and a baby at the same time with all three of you in one bed and wondering what his role as father and husband is actually going to be.

Talk to the man - he's behaving attrociously but he's probably just scared and confused.

Apologies if I have made gross assumptions and stepped over the line. I am the sort of person who is very good at having lots of thoughts and plans in my head and forgetting to talk to DP about them - but I understand most people are a bit more useful!

[changedmynameforthis]

I think the basic problem that I have is that there are not enough things that I like in my life - obviously I don't mean ds... I just don't get enough "positive strokes" and so try to get it all from dh who is a vastly different person to me and seems to need different things to me completely. This morning again he was kissing ds goodbye as I was holding him and as he walked away, I said something along the lines of "give me a hug as well??" (maybe too pushy) and he said that I was a baby, that he wasn't going away on an expedition and that I was jealous of ds. I said that I was not and he said I was, and to think about it. I said that I had and he said "think about it until I find it"... I give up basically. I look at other couples who do silly things like kiss hello and goodbye and think "wow". Thing is we did at first and so there was no way of telling that that was not really dh but his infatuated self. I truly do not think I am jealous of ds, I just am lacking in the things I need, irrespective of ds.
Anyway, will post more later as my friend has arrived. Have to get a lot more off my chest plus respond to people's messages.