Ds threatened with exclusion, and I still honestly don't know why. How do I take this further? Am fuming

[ernest]

Ok, this will be long, sorry, I'll try to be concise.

Last school year ds was in the 1st class. Got a few (maybe 4 or 5) calls from1 of his teachers (he has 2) about him talking too much, being cheeky, minor stuff. I'm friendly with both teachers, thanked them, made it clear I want to know, followed up to check he's improving etc etc.

6 weeks ago he starts 2nd class. Not heard 1 word from school, tho as I've also started working there I'm there often & have personally spoken to his teachers several times, they've not said 1 word to me about him.

3 weeks ago there was a routine, start of the year parent's evening where they outline what the kids will do that year. During this the 2 teahers said there'd been loads of problems with this class & expected our support to help them improve. No names mentioned.

Last week we got a call from the head saying they were having a meeting to discuss the problems of the 2nd class. I assumed it was for all the prents. During this meeting again he said no names mentioned but really laid it on thick about no more trouble or exclusions etc etc. I only found out after only the parents of the 8 worst kids, all boys, and all bar 1 foreign, invited. Am absolutely horrified my son is considered one of the worst kids and up for exclusion.

Yesterday I met with his teacher and asked why, as still not been explained what exactly he's done, and if he's so bad, why I've not had 1 word from school. I separatley met the head (also funnily enough, her dh) this mornig, and hand on heart, I still can't see how they can justify such a strong reaction. It's low level stuff, I know annoying, but not bloody exclusion level, eg talking in class, being silly and not stopping. Not been cheeky, not been violent or agressive.

Head tells me this will hang over his head for the next 2 years. I am really pissed off. The other kids (7) maybe 2 are in the same position as him, and the others really are agressive fighters, who have also beaten my son up a couple of times. I even encouraged him to be frinedly with them so that they wouldn't hit him! Now I feel he is 'guilty by association'.

There was an incident a couple of weeks ago where the teacher lost control and ended up man handling 4 of the boys. The head then had to intervene and thus called the meeting and asked her for a list of the kids with repeated discipline problems, and she gave my son's name, even tho he was not involved in the incident and even tho, whatever his problems are, they were never so bad she felt she had to contact me.

I have met both the teacher and the head and remain really pissed off the is under the 'sword of Damaclese' for such small things, and don't know what I should do, if anything. Meeting with head had to get cut short, so he has asked me if I wish to make a further appointment.

Sorry it's long. I'm really stressed. And now ds2 has started the school and he's much more of a handful!!

Then

[ernest]

hi sk, was thinking of ringing you.
My problem is, there was a big incident, in fact 3 incidents cited, but the 3rd was the final straw, all involving 2 Klasslers fighting etc. My son wasn't involved in any of these incidents! Even the teacher agrees with this! Yet he is being hauled up on a parr with them .... because?? because what? he talks in class. Shock bloody horror! ( year old boy talks in class. Exclude him!

Thing is, I've met with the teacher and the Head teacher (the original meeting was with the head, someone from the Schulpflege, and the Schulpresidentin).

I don't know if I should go back and ask to meet with the head + teacher (husband & wife team) and ask them to tkae him off "the list", have this removed now from hs record, not in 2 years.

They say all sympathetically, oh, mrs xxx, we know xx isn't a bad or agressive boy. We don't want to send him away. If he gets into no more trouble nothing will happen. But how can I ensure he doesn't breathe out of line for 2 whole years???? After all, he's in this serious trouble after what? Being annoying for 4 weeks? But not so annoying they needed to tell me about it.

[cornsilk]

Where are you ernest?

[OrmIrian]

ernest - so sorry for your lad . It does seem an extreme reaction. Why have they treated him like this if he wasn't involved in the major incidents?

[SauerKraut]

It sounds pretty unfair of them to have put him on the list. If the original meeting was with the Schulpflege I would write to them and the heads to get them to take him off the list now- and to request better flipping communication. It's always better in writing here, they like it official, and you can get all your bits said without them arguing. Sounds ridiculously over the top of them.

[ernest]

My Q exactly, OrmIrian. Now I just need to know what, if anything to do about it.

Thing is, we really went mad with ds, really tough on him all weekend, and he ireally is a sweet boy, I struggle to believe it I really do, sk has met him. He is quiet and sweet isn't he? (now ds2 is bonkers. And as for ds3, bloody hell, they won't know what's hit them when he comes )

Anyway, despite coming down really tough on him, Monday he comes home from school and says teacher says he was 'lively'/ a bit not calm (sorry can't think of good translation) and in the meeting she suggests he has maybe ADHD or something. So she thinks he might have a disorder, but still thinks it's appropriate to haul him up like thins with no warning whatsoever, because some other boys in the class she can't cope with???

So do I ask them to over turn this, or just leave it, or what? And if they refuse?

[ernest]

sorry cornsilk, we are in switzerland. Am gutted. Until this I was so happy with the school and with my boys experiences here. Now I am very and . Problem is sk, I just can't write well enough in German. Probably a letter would be better, but this is one of my big problems here.

[fireflyfairy2]

Ernest, can you put a call out on the board for someone to help you write a letter in German? IIRC there are a few members who speak the language

I feel your son is just being tarred with the same brush as the trouble makers How unfair!

[itbird]

From another point of view my dd suffered terribly froma group of boys who were pretty much like what you are describing , they disrupted the class, picked on other kids, basically ran riot for three years, not all of them were the trouble makers but they tend to copy each other in their boisterous behaviour, we tried many times to get something done, i called a parent myself to see if they knew what their ds was actually saying and doing in class, her view was utter shock that her ds could ever be classed as disruptive and said things along the same lines as you 'if you really knew him he is such a sweet child'bla bla. My dd is now at an all girls senior school and is back to how she was when all this trouble in class started, she loves going to school and not having to worry about who is going to be pushing, kicking, calling her names etc, The school has a duty of care to all of the pupils, wish my dd's school had cracked down instead of ignoring the whole situation and concerned parents.

[SauerKraut]

I have a very good friend who would translate your letter into German- she is a writer and has done it for me and her English is excellent.

[ernest]

itbird, I totally agree that kids should be well behaved in class. I don't have a problem with his being disciplined. I Do have a problem with him being badly behaved. I am also a teacher! I know how annoying it is. I am 100% in favour of him behaving well and not being disruptive.

But I have a HUGE problem with the school not informing me. They did call me last year when he was cheeky. I made this clear earlier that I welcomed the input and dealt with it. The school confirm he is no longer cheeky. His bad bahaviour is absolutely unacceptable to me. But how can I support the school if they do not tell me? And how can I repsect their decisions and find it fair to treat him in such a way, on a par with the really problem kids who are deliberatley fighting & causing trouble.

He should not be treated the same. How can he understand punishments, when what is happening is TOTALLY out of proportion with the 'crime'. He was not involved in ANY of the incidents cited. The teacher and Head teacher both confirm this. Would you also be happy to get called to a meeting by your dd's head teacher, and find out after the meeting that he/she meant your dd, because he didn't mention any names, and because she is mates with some trouble makers, she will also be up for exclusion if she steps out of line? I don't think so.

And if the school suspected your dd had a learning or developmental disorder which caused /exaccerbated her problems, then it is also appropriate to threaten with exlcusion because of this very behaviour? Would you also think this was fair to your dd?

I find your comments particularly annoying, as I have made it abundantly clear that I am an interested an supportive parents who does not accept poor behavious. so bla bla to you and engage your brain before you tell me about poor little dd with the nasty boys. I am sick of boys being vilified!!!! And not just my son. It is a daily occurence. Girls are lovely boys are horrid. Well, I have 3 sons and need to ensure they get dealt with fairly. It is neither mine nor my son's fault if he is placed in a 'difficult' class with - shock horror - 14 boys, 4 of whom are violent. He is not one of them

[Blu]

Ernest - huge sympathies - it does seem v unreasonable that they did not give you arlier communication of this probelm.

One thing - can you now encourage DS to swap his freindships? Once they are friends with someone who talks in class, they don't seem to be able to ignore someone who is constantly talking to them. Encouraging him to stay well away from the group who are being disruptive could be the single most helpful thing in enabling him to remain quiet and calm in class.

DS was always in trouble for talking 'on the carpet' - and then i discovered it was because his freind kept whispering to him and he tought it would be rude to ignore him. So i told him to sit somewhere else and that if he answered someone it wasn't actually being nice to that person because it might mean that person would get into trouble.

If i were you i would do anyhting possible - invitations to tea, trips to park, whatever happens socially in Switzerland - to enable him to be friends with other classmates.

Good luck.

[ernest]

Thanks Blu, I have immediately banned him from the other 7 boys. he is no longer to walk home with them, play with them at break etc. Problem is, he only made friends with some of them as I said earlier because they were hitting and fighting (loads of kids) and it wasn't dealt with, so I suggested he be friends so they wouldn't hit him! And now this. So another fear is that they start picking on him again now that he's trying to distance himself.

I have told him if there is any hint of trouble, he is to get right away fromit.. And asked the teacher to move his seat - he's got really bad eyes, yet his seat is right at the back, directly behind one of the "evil 8"! Just doesn't seem to make any sence to me.

[OrmIrian]

itbird - even the teacher agrees that ernest's DS isn't really such a big problem though.

[finknottle]

How infuriating Ernest. Think you do need a letter as you've already had an "official" meeting with the head and the Schulpflege. What seems contradictory to me is the head saying it'll hang over ds's head & calling meetings and at the same time agreeing sympathetically that he's not bad or aggressive
I'd feel better with a written summary of what's gone on (incl the lack of notification about any probs) as if anything else happens you can't rely on the "But you said... and I said..."
They don't have Schulpflege here - but if you want to be taken seriously, you write a letter: Ordnung muss sein

[fakeblonde]

Huge sympathies for you and your ds.
School are well out of order -have they ever heard of communucation ?
Do you really want your ds to go to a school woith such an influence in his classroom-hence why i travel miles and miles every day to take my dc to quite village school.I know not everyone can do this tho.

[ernest]

This is the 'nice village school'. I have, up till this point been so rediculously happy with the school, now I am stunned and fuming. And I do think it's not without coincidence that all of the kids, bar 1 are foreign.

But the point is really, this has happened, I don't thinkit's at all afir. I have spoken to his teacher face to face at least 1 a week every week since the start of the school year, and phoned and mailed many more times yet not once did she mention a problem with my son's behaviour. Not once. yet last year she did a few times and each time I responded very positively and the results were clear to see (improved behaviour), so she knows she can speak to me, and that it is not a waste of time, on the contrary, it brings results. Yet she did not once contact me. Not once.


Ggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[ernest]

Ok, yesterday, I got a phone call from the school at lunch time saying how brilliant ds was being and how good etc etc.. Then he had afternoon school, and returned from afternoon school with a packet of top trump cards he'd won as a prize for being so good - they get stars for being extra good, and when they get 20 they get a prize. These points have been carried over from the 1st class (they keep the same teachers) and he says he's had the most stars and other kids have still only got 2 or 3. SO I'm very much getting mixed messages here. I have popped into the school a couple of times also when he's not expected me/known I'm there, and each time he's been working quietly and well.

ALso, when I spoke to the head, one of the things he said was getting outside help in cost loads of money, so my suspicion is they couldn't justify it for 1 or 2 kids, so they've added loads to the list just to make up number and justify the expense. I spoke to another mum whose son is one of the "evil 8" and apparently he was directly involved in the swimming pool incident, but only insofar as he stuck his foot out. He remainded standing in his place, he didn't hit anyone, I know sticking out your foot is naughty, but still, not exclusion standard either, surely?

Dh is now going to come with me to meet the Head and the 2 class teachers again on Monday.

Thanks sk for the offer of letter help, I didn't notice it, oops. Have tried to ring you a couple of times.

[mysonsmummy]

i have read your thread a couple of times.

you must have a very low opinion of the school if you think they would bring your son into this for no reason just to get more funding. in which case is it the right choice of school.

the school have been in touch with you in the past to say there were problems with your sons behaviour.

[AitchTwoOh]

not exclusion-worthy problems, though. ernest it sounds very difficult, i hope it can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. are you happy that the teacher is in control? didn't like the sound of the man-handling much...

[ernest]

My son was in trouble for being cheeky maybe 3 or 4 times last year. He has no longer been cheeky. The ONLY reason the teacher could give me for him being included is that he is 'lively'.

Actually, until this incident, I had an extremely high opinion of the school. Which is lucky as we have no choice about which school he attends.

The teacher herself, and the head teacher too have confirmed he is not involved in any major incident, but he talks in class and so his name was added to the list. This is not my imagination. The teacher has confirmed she has at many times had very poor control over the class, and finds them extremely difficult, especially as it's mostly boys (14 boys & 5 girls).

The final straw came as she couldn't get them to line up after swimming, some swung their pe bags round to hit the 1st class kids who were arriving. My son wasn't part of this. She says he wasn't. She then yanked 4 kids by the ear/pulled their ears to get them to obey her. She lost it. She describes the incident as a 'cry for help'. So if she won't get the help she thinks she needs by complaining about a couple of boys, I don't think it's so outrageous or such a huge leap to think she'd include several other kids to justify her needs.

In a 1 hour meeting with her, the ONLY thing she could say about him was that he was lively in class. You can't threaten a child with exclusion because of something he did last year that's been resolved, nor for being talkative in class.

And so we will discuss when we meet the Head & teachers again on Monday.

[bigwombat]

Hi ernest, I don't know how old your son is but in some ways it sounds like the teacher is out of her depth with such a male dominated class. If she is making 'cries for help' by yanking children by the ear, things have gone sadly wrong. The boys may be lively and a handful, but I bet that under the right classroom control, these problems would diminish. My dd's class is very boy-dominated, but they have a male teacher and male classroom assistant - I have seen the teachers in action, and the class behave as if they were in the army! Not sure how you can approach this, but I'm sure you are going about it the right way so far. The school sound a bit desperate tbh.

[Peachy]

ernest- just a bit of sympathy, my ds also facing this problem (although the 'And if the school suspected your dd had a learning or developmental disorder which caused /exaccerbated her problems, then it is also appropriate to threaten with exlcusion because of this very behaviour/' yous aid earlier is relevant as he is ASD and it is a transition issue- I have a separate thread).

have you spoken to the LEA? I would imagine that they would be rather unhappy about the complete lack of communication you are receiving from the school- certainly ours came down quite heavily on our Head over a different issue, for lack of communication ability.

Hope it all works out for you- and anyone who thinks (itbird) that its surprising that a mother would think their child lovely yet he be an issue in school- if we don't think our own chidlren lovely what possible hope is there for them? doesn't mean we cnt use discipline, rewards, whatever- but if we dont think they're lovely then they're stuffed!

[AitchTwoOh]

i used to teach a class of 10-year-old boys only (just summer school for Italian kids over here). i know the reason i was given the class (15 of them) was that the other more experienced teachers refused.
they were great, though, really clever and lively and fun, but, my oh my, you had to be on your toes and thinking of things for them to do. boys always seemed so much more 'victory-orientated' than classes with girls, wehre a 'well done' would suffice.
i feel for you, ernest, this is an outrageous way to be treated. (and how indiscreet of the head and teacher to tell you all these things, btw).