Pupils to sit times tables tests from 2019

[mrz]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39053483

[AssassinatedBeauty]

What are your thoughts on this OP?

[user789653241]

I think end of ks2 seems a bit too late.

[deplorabelle]

Seems like a pointless layer of micromanagement to me. Surely all schools in the land recognise the value of times tables and endeavour to teach them effectively. Why do they need to mandate national testing?

[Feenie]

Far to late to help any child - particularly when the NC requires them to know all of them by the end of Y4.

[Feenie]

Too too too!

[AssassinatedBeauty]

It's to judge schools presumably rather than help pupils.

[Weatherforecaster]

I'm a primary teacher and think this should be in July of y4 when the children should know them by anyway. I'm y3 and my children know their 2,5,10,3,4,8 inside out.

[ladyvimes]

Woohoo more tests!

You can't fatten a pig by weighing it and all that.

[mrz]

I think Y6 is too late and it adds yet another test for the end of primary. The end of Y4 beginning of Y5 would make more sense.

[Feenie]

It's to judge schools presumably rather than help pupils.

They could do both at the end of Y4.

If I remember rightly, they were also going to make it online, which would be v difficult for some schools, especially 3 form entry ones.

[Tomorrowillbeachicken]

its just more pressure on top of sats imo

[user789653241]

How do they do it online? Ds' school is 3 form entry. I don't think they have enough computer to accommodate 90+ children at once!

[Feenie]

Exactly.

[mrz]

With great difficulty
Hope they have a better system than the one they use to input data

[Ellle]

There shouldn't be any added pressure from this test by the time they are in Year 6. DS has had times tables tests every single week since he started Year 3.

But yeah, the test is rather pointless at the end of Year 6. The results won't tell anything that the teachers and parents don't know already. And by Year 6 it's too late to help the students that struggle with times tables.
I suspect the test is one more thing they'll use to put pressure on the school.

Teachers don't need this kind of test to identify which students still don't know their times tables well and need extra help or interventions.

[TeenAndTween]

It seems a bit pointless to me too, and I'm speaking as a maths graduate with 2 children who are poor at times tables . (They are certainly not poor from lack of effort on my part but have a SpLD which seems to make it hard for them to learn & recall them.)

[JustEatYourDinner]

Ugh.

[sirfredfredgeorge]

How do they do it online? Ds' school is 3 form entry. I don't think they have enough computer to accommodate 90+ children at once!

But a times table test would need to be done all at once if the questions were simply randomised - we all know the possible questions that could be asked so each pupil could have a different set of questions without it being unfair.

But yes, it does seem rather late.

[mrz]

It will be the same test for every child and the original plan was every Y6 child in the country would take the test at the same time ...

[user789653241]

I don't think times table needs national testing. It's already in NC to be able to do it by end of yr4.
Each school can make sure it happens.
I don't know about past, but now, they spend chunk of yr3/4 doing times tables. Teachers know who can and who can't.

And it's not like phonics, that some children may pass without secure knowledge of tables and have trouble in the future. If they don't recall all, but can calculate quick enough without it, it will present no problem.( I've read some gifted children/adult doing fine without memorising times table on MN.)

I think times table testing should be something similar to pen licence. They should be tested and granted the pass when the child is ready, (which majority would by end of yr4), rather than all being tested at the end of ks2. There will be no time to give failed children proper intervention by then.

And also if they are testing if the child is secure, they don't need to use same question either. There are only limited number of questions(144). They should be able to answer any from 1 x 1 to 12 x 12. And unless one child is getting all the 1 table and one getting 12 and 11, it's fair. Random questions for each child is not unfair, imo.

[mrz]

The government can't compare children unless they all have exactly the same questions (a bit like the phonics check)

[OhtoblazeswithElvira]

Slight derail alert!

I love mental arithmetic and know my times tables inside out. DH (privately educated and with a good Oxbridge degree in case that mattters) has a very weak knowledge of them. DC is coming to the age where they will start learning them at school. I have struggled to explain to them why times tables are useful and important. Could other, more articulate MNrs help here? TIA

[mrz]

Having automatic instant recall frees us up to focus on the application to solve the "problem".

[mrz]

And yes you can get by without knowing your tables knowing them just makes it easier.

[user789653241]

If they have to test with exactly same question, then there always be a risk of leak/cheating, unless everybody are tested at same time. And secure children do well no matter, and struggling children may pass and be forgotten, especially the school only care about pass rate.