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Student fees

85 replies

gillymac · 04/11/2002 21:59

Have just read on the BBC news site about certain universities wanting to charge students 'top up' fees over and above the current capped level of £1100 pa. This should, these universities believe, be paid either by students taking out bigger loans or by so-called better off parents saving for it. As a parent of three, all of whom will probably want to go onto higher education I'm pretty p**d off about this (although living in Scotland we currently don't have to pay student fees at Scottish universities up front) and just wondered if anyone else had any views on this.

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Java · 04/11/2002 22:25

I think it's sad that people may be denied the opportunity of higher education because of financial pressures. I only had the chance to go to university because it was free and I received a full grant. At the time I didn't have a specific career in mind, but later I was able to secure a "graduate job" because I'd taken a degree when the opportunity was there.

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WideWebWitch · 04/11/2002 22:41

I think all education, including higher education should be free and available to everyone. I remember the days of student grants for all too and this just went and no-one seemed to make a big fuss about it. (or did I miss the big fuss? Possibly!) Students already spend years of their working lives paying off banks for living costs incurred while studying...

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bossykate · 04/11/2002 22:59

gillymac, my dh is an academic and has some strong views on this subject, related to the fact that universities have been underfunded for a generation (i.e. since 1979), yet student numbers are ever increasing and goverment targets have them set to rise still higher. the numbers just don't work out i'm afraid. it is not possible to keep on increasing student numbers without the corresponding increase in funding. where is this to come from? there are a number of ideas being considered, of which top up fees is one. others include a graduate tax, or there is of course an increase in taxes. many university teachers work for slave wages (e.g. £6,000 p.a.) on short term contracts with no security whatsoever. this is after after at least five years worth of studying. as with so many public sector workers, the system relies on the vocational commitment of the staff to keep running.

we have been saving up since ds was born on the assumption that the current university system is untenable, and that we - rather than the state - will have to fund his higher education.

and now I'm putting dh on!

erm... bit scared to post on the mighty mumsnet, but... yes, universities are in a very bad way indeed. I know academics - like farmers - are always complaining, and that it's better at the top end (although Oxford have ended their one to one tutorial system recently as it's too expensive) but things really are very bad. Student numbers have been increasing steadily (which is in itself a very good thing, I think)but the resources have been declining (which is a very bad thing). Universities are stretched beyond the limit, pay for staff is rubbish (worse than for school teachers) and short term contracts are endemic.

It's hard to describe the creeping despair in Higer Education. We have endured endless quality assessments, we give really good vaue for money (last week an OECD survery rated Britain No 1 for the best universities with the best value for money), we meet the targets set from us by the govenment, we bring billions into the UK economy from overseas, we stimulate industry - from pubs for students in run down cites to high tech biotechnology - and - oh yes! - we train all the teachers, doctors, journalists, managers, accountants, nurses, internet site setter-uppers etc etc. Things might have been easier 40 years ago, but they aren't now.

I hate the idea of top-up fees, of course, but seeing as Higher Education is not going to get any more money from the government (who, perhaps rightly, are concetrating on primary and secondary education) we have to do something to save ourselves, or else we might as well pack up and go home.

What will happen is this: the best 10 or so universities will set huge fees and be excellent, with lots of scholarships: the next rank (about 30 or so) will be in a constant struggle and will be slightly worse than now: the bottom 50 universities will become even more huge and anonymous institutes, with huge drop out rates (50%), very poor resources and teaching and little or no research. How do I know? Because that's what the US HE system is like.

this is bk again - i said he has strong views on this!

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WideWebWitch · 04/11/2002 23:04

Bossykate's DH, when you say "we have to do something to save ourselves", do you have something in mind? What in your view could/should be done? Welcome to the mighty mumsnet btw and please do post away, that was interesing (and depressing).

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SueW · 05/11/2002 07:46

Why can't the government stop concentrating on getting almost everybody into university and start looking at the desperate need for properly trained tradespeople?

In my area, it is nigh impossible to find a plumber, joiner, carpenter, electrician or builder. Even our regular builder can't recommend one of these tradespeople - he has a contract with the local water board for a plumber to come out and fix anything he has wrong in his own home.

Although my daughter is bright, I will be encouraging her throughout her school years to learn to do something with her hands as much as with her mind. And as for myself - I am seriously considering starting a plumbing course next year. As a self-employed plumber, I'll be able to choose my own hours and command a fee far in excess of most office jobs!

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SueDonim · 05/11/2002 07:51

I was appalled to read this at the w/end, as we have already had to pay a small fortune to put one ds through uni and are part-way through funding a second ds. We never in our wildest dreams thought we would have to pay for a university education for our children, and we have another two children to pay for, one of whom is considering medicine. What on earth has DH been paying taxes for 40 years for??? It stinks, quite honestly, that the likes of T Blair, G Brown (although I understand he is against this particular move) and others (universty satff?)have taken advantage of the education system in this country and now seek to pull up the ladder behind them.

I believe this is a retrograde step, taking us back to the days when only the wealthy/elite could afford to go to uni. A two tier system will emerge, where degrees from less well-regarded institutions won't be worth the paper they are written on. (I guess that exists already, to a certain extent but surely will become much much worse). Maybe we need to look again at whether university is appropriate for all. Is it really worth spending money on degrees in surfing (the sea kind, not the cyber version!)and computer game writing?

I'd much prefer to see a graduate tax put in place. I think that would be much fairer as it would be appropriate to people's earnings.

Grrrr, as you can see, it's a subject dear to my heart!

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SueDonim · 05/11/2002 07:54

Oops, maybe I should go back to school to improve my spelling - sorry about the typos!

Well said, Sue W, I think you are spot-on.

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ScummyMummy · 05/11/2002 08:19

I really liked your post mr bossykate and do sympathise BUT (oo seem to be shouting a lot of BUTS this morning!) what about poeple who have no money and don't have their parents saving for uni from an early age? Mr Scum has huge debts from college that still make a real impact on our day to day financial situation. I don't. Why? Because my dad, forseeing the long-term disaster of having huge loans to repay, helped me out bigtime financially while I was at uni, like Suedonim did for her boy. Mr Scum's folks just couldn't afford to do so. Not fair- I know life isn't but is there really no other option? Surely social divides are ever more underlined by allowing poorer students to run up a crippling debt while their richer co-students leave college more fancy free, ready to hit the job market running and climb up the housing ladder with no financial impediments?
Even more unfair is the fact that some very bright kids I meet from extremely impoverished backgrounds may never get to college at all, though their brain cell content would indicate that they should have a place booked for them at birth...

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Marina · 05/11/2002 09:26

SueW, that's an excellent point. I wish we were more like the French (and other European countries possibly?), where there is excellent quality secondary education and then good apprenticeships for skilled engineers, craftspeople etc. What is this obsession with trying to give everyone a "degree"? Too many students are being sold short in the current system - seminars with 200 + attendees, anyone?
I have particular sympathies with the plight of lecturers, graduate teaching assistants, etc - but if these top-up fees are put into effect, their children will also be priced out of the system. And I do wonder whether the Russell Group really intends much of that money to be ploughed into proper salaries for university staff.
Like Mr Scum, my parents could not afford to help much with my university education costs, but I am clearly older than he is because I got a FULL grant from ILEA and just about got by with doing bar work, vacation jobs etc.
My parents did not attend university, even though they were bright enough and would have loved it, because their backgrounds were too poor. I am appalled at the idea that my generation of my family might be the only ones to have been able to afford university - ability to pay should not determine access.
I think the Scandinavian model of a graduate tax might be fairer. We will pay as much as we can afford to help our ds should he choose to go to university, but we simply could not afford to pay anything like £15,000 per annum at today's prices, never mind whatever it will be in 20 years' time.
Shame on Tony Blair and co - and on the Russell Group too, I'm sorry to say. I'm a graduate of one of its member universities and I think their "go it alone", confrontational attitude is unhelpful. You are so right Suedonim, about the ladder being pulled up.

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Batters · 05/11/2002 09:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

janh · 05/11/2002 10:50

Agree with everybody so far - well, who could argue with any of this? Mr bossykate's point about HE and FE salaries being lower than teachers' was mentioned in a feature on the radio the other day and, SueW, you might struggle to find a plumbing course because a plumber can earn 5 times more doing plumbing than teaching it, so why would he bother teaching? And there already is a shortage of good reliable tradesman, as the current ones get older and retire there will be even less of them.

The money which is currently being spent on providing 100s of miscellaneous kinds of degrees for people who really shouldn't even be at university, as Batters said, (a friend of my DD1's is doing a university degree in Golf Course Design and Management!!!!) would be better going into good quality vocational training, as I believe they have in Germany (?), with salaries for the teachers that equate with what they would get as tradesmen.

The highest top-up fees will presumably - when they come in, as they inevitably will, although not until after the next election because not doing it was a pledge in the last one - be charged by the top-flight unis like Oxbridge, Bristol, Durham, Edinburgh etc. A family already has to be pretty wealthy to send a child to any of them - accommodation outside halls is extortionate, and at Oxbridge at least students are NOT ALLOWED to work part-time to keep themselves going. Top-up fees will have the biggest impact on the next group down. Was I dreaming or did I hear a figure of £15,000 mentioned?

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janh · 05/11/2002 10:53

PS How about raising the higher rate of tax from 40% to 45% and putting all the revenue from that into HE and FE?

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tigermoth · 05/11/2002 11:13

I'd hate to think that increasing numbers of families can't afford to send their children to university. It seems a step back in time. Even ending up with girls thinking twice about higher education, fearing if they have babies, they will not be able to combine a career break with their huge student debt repayment without depending on a partner's income.

I don't know what the answer is - more sponsorship from industry? - so will keep reading your suggestions.

One thing that also worries me is a growing division in subject choice. Students choosing their subjects not because of aptitude and love, but becasue of work prospects. Poor students going for the more vocational degrees, leaving the classics, fine art etc to the rich.

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tigermoth · 05/11/2002 11:17

Ps I'm in favour of more vocational courses, less degrees, but think it would be wrong if poor students felt the only form of higher education they could afford was a vocational course. Idealistic I know.

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piasmum · 05/11/2002 11:30

DH and I are both lecturers at one of the russell Group unis and TBH I have very mixed feelings about the proposals. Academic salaries have not risen in line with those of many public sector workers and it's somewhat depressing to think that all the study and penury are not valued. It amazes me that so many people seem to think that uni lecturers main/only role is teaching and that we are on holiday when the students are etc..

We are putting money aside for dd and in some ways I don't mind because there are people who need govt help more than she will. Also I think it would help if we could acknowledge that all degrees are not equal, we have the top end here but I dread to think what some of the staff in ex-polys have to deal with. The business school here is very well off, mainly because it runs an MBA course which will accept just about anyone so long as they pay the course fees...the result is a very "lite" sylllabus and many students who struggle with English.

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titchy · 05/11/2002 12:01

Sorry I cannot think that raising tuition fees is the answer. This makes HE elitist and in the long run entry to university will be based on ability to pay not academic ability. Even the top universities will find they have to take less able students because so few will be able to pay the extortionate fees.

True the funding we get (I work in HE) is poor, but I ought to point out this is not related to the fact that students contribute £1100 a year to their fees. The Government paid the fees before this system, now they still pay the costs of a course, but less the students' portion of fees, so the universities did not gain anything by having the student contribute, simply the Government could reduce it's expenditure on HE.

Personally I think a graduate tax (or more likely higher National Insurance contributions) would be a better system (although ideally the Government should pay the lot, AND let students claim housing benefit and income support in the holidays).

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isitbedtimeyet · 05/11/2002 12:51

I agree with most of the sentiments here.I cannot afford to save up to send my children to university although by the time they do decide to go I could probably afford to help them.I can't even afford a pension for myself at the moment but that's another thread.I really feel that for the third richest nation in the world to suggest that our young people should pay for their education and have a loan instead of a grant is disgraceful of this government.If I was a student now I would get as many people together as posssible and do what they did in Scotland and b+++++ well march and protest as much as possible until they listen.I myself wanted to train in horticulture and could not get a discretionary grant to do it ,so I didn't do it.I think you should also be able to get grants not only for degree courses but all HE.

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bossykate · 05/11/2002 13:00

there's an interesting article examining this issue here >> news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/features/mike_baker/2386251.stm.

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Tinker · 05/11/2002 13:56

Hope to post more later but SueW, very good point. You must have read the Observer this Sunday because I have been saying I'm going to train as a plumber since reading that article. There is to be a huge shortage of plumbers soon - we could go into partnership as non-rip-off female plumbers!

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janh · 05/11/2002 14:11

tigermoth, I was thinking that if more money went into education from taxation, and it was organised differently and maybe more efficiently, nobody would have to pay anything and people could do the things they had the aptitude for, regardless of their financial background - so practical people could do vocational courses, academic people could study, the actual universities wouldn't need to be so huge and shouldn't cost as much?

isitbedtimeyet - snap. We have four kids, the eldest is at uni now, our income (very middling) means she doesn't get the maximum loan but our circumstances mean we can't help her out much financially (my DH can only put £50 into his pension and as he is already 51 that's not going to go very far, he'll still be working at 70 at this rate) so she has to do part-time work. She will still have the enormous lump of student debt at the other end but she can be proud of herself for her contribution. By the time the youngest is 18 we should be in a better position to help (but that will seem unfair!).

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janh · 05/11/2002 14:22

bossykate, I just pasted this bit from the BBC article:



Many - most? - of the people who pay higher rate tax now are probably graduates who had free university education. If the rate were increased now they would be providing financial help for today's students who aren't so lucky, there wouldn't need to be any complicated system for keeping track of people and increasing their "graduate tax" payments as their salaries increased, and yesterday's graduates would continue to pay for today's students as time went on.

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bossykate · 05/11/2002 14:41

janh, are you a higher rate taxpayer?

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janh · 05/11/2002 14:49

Bossykate, why do you ask?

Yes - well, DH is.

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aloha · 05/11/2002 17:48

I am someone else who wants to put my child benefit into a 'going to university' savings account for ds (13months) because there is no way we will be able to pay for him as we will be old and grey then. Any financial advisers out there who can suggest the best savings plan that combines safety (ie stock market crash won't wipe out all our savings) with a reasonable rate of return?

I had a full grant, accommodation paid for etc and actually feel that I would have done just as well without a degree. I tell students that sometimes just to see their shocked faces. However, we live in a degree-worshipping society. At my old publishing company they wouldn't let people come and do work experience (ie come and slave for us for nothing) unless they had a degree, which I though was stupid and outrageous in equal measure. Golf Course Management and Design indeed!
If my ds doesn't want to be a lawyer, doctor or teacher or anything that doesn't require vocational degrees I'm going to suggest plumbing school too!

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gillymac · 05/11/2002 19:41

Hi everyone. Glad to hear that other people have strong feelings about this too.
Bossykate, I agree fully about universities being grossly underfunded and overdemanded by goverment. My dh works as a research technician at one and his employment is one short-term contract after another and his wages are pretty c**p for his qualifications and experience. Know the situation is the same for friends of his who are lecturers and research associates. Also his university has, due to financial problems, just had to make members of staff redundant. So, I'm not knocking universities or saying they're all greedy just that it's grossly unfair to have a situation where students (or their parents) are expected to pay huge ammounts of fees + living expenses as all this will do is put further education out of the reach of those on low or middling incomes or make students start their working lives with an even greater burden of debt round their necks than they already have. I don't know what the answer is but believe that the government should put more funding into HE/FE perhaps by increasing the higher tax rat to 45% like janh suggested.
Agree with the point about plumbers etc Sue W. The situation is just the same in Edinburgh. We recently had a new bathroom put in and it was nigh on impossible to get a plumber to do it. In fact our local paper ran a feature recently about plumbers and joiners being the new 'aristocracy' because of the high wages they could make (in excess of £50,000 a year). Unfortunately dd1 despite being good at woodwork and studying craft and design does not want to be a joiner prefering the option of going to university and delaying the world of work for several more years!

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