Nursery fees mess

[hanna007]

Hi,
Hope someone can help me with tricky question.
I have filled in application form and paid application fee £40 back in July at the preschool. The application form states one term notice is payable. I have made sure that they were aware that my child is possibly autistic (his brother is and he shows similar traits) and has never been left alone. So I have twice said that I will want to stay with him for quite a few sessions and will leave him once comfortable.
As this was just before summer break (they shut over summer), I waited and received letter a few days before start of term asking for £150 deposit to be used against last terms invoice and if I don’t pay it the place will be cancelled. I didn’t pay as I there were no payment details attached.
Day 1 - I turn up and they expect me to just drop him and go. I demanded to stay but felt bit uncomfortable as if I was in a way. Day 2 - husband dropeed him off and being him, he just left him there. He was crying at drop off (expected), but found him crying on pick up, not being comforted by anyone.
He said it was too loud, so I asked if he can wear ear defenders and was politely told no. My son completely refuses to go, tried twice, tried offering to go and stay with him, but he refuses.
So understandably, I want out.
According to them I would be on hook for 2 terms worth or £1600 for literally going there for 4 hours.
I haven’t signed any actual contract, only application form. I have also not paid deposit or terms fees (the woman who runs it sent me wrong person’s invoice three times!).
Where do I stand legally?!

[whereiscaroline]

Were any t&c's on the application form? Even the back?

[hanna007]

nope. just this

I agree to pay £150 deposit prior to entry as an acceptance of the place offered to me, which will be deducted from the final term’s fees and is non-refundable under other circumstances.

I understand that a term’s written notice is required should my child be leaving Pre-School, or payment in lieu will be charged.

[Fiffyshadesofgreymatter]

Eh... those are the terms so why did you say No when the other poster asked?

It says you need to give a trend notice. You signed it. There's your answer.

[Fiffyshadesofgreymatter]

*terms

[HaroldsSocalledBluetits]

My gut feeling is that they're not able to accommodate your child's needs so I'd be loathe to pay + it's not like you've just changed your mind. Maybe contact the local authority - even if it's a private nursery, don't they oversee them?

[HaroldsSocalledBluetits]

Hope your ds is ok.

[hanna007]

children are unfortunately not commodities - if he was happy I would have left it. It is actually very inconvenient to have to withdraw him.
To fifty: because it was application form. Application doesn’t guarantee place take up. I have not paid the deposit. They broke what they said it’s going to happen.

[Fiffyshadesofgreymatter]

That's not just an application. It's an acceptance of the place offered to you. Failing to pay the deposit doesn't get you off the hook; it's actually another fee they could come after you for (however their invoice will even that score by not reducing the final term by £150).

This comes up a lot, and the bottom line is that you are required to pay and they usually win if taken further.

[HaroldsSocalledBluetits]

Yes but if they can't accommodate her child's needs it's they who are breaking the contract. One could argue, I think.

[Fiffyshadesofgreymatter]

@HaroldsSocalledBluetits

Unless she has the child's needs added to the contract then no.
It's only been 2 days. Almost all kids scream and cry for the first couple weeks. Then they settle down. It's sometimes actually good for kids with SN to be in that environment. Sometimes it's not. But 2 days if trying isn't enough to figure that out.

[hanna007]

he isn’t just screaming on way there. he is screaming at night saying ‘no nursery’ and became clingy, all day asking me ‘we are not off to nursery, don’t take me’.
Business also needs to make reasonable adjustments as per SEN code.
I wish I have never started there.

Maybe fifty doesn’t mind that, but I was a nanny many moons ago and I know kids cry, but not like that and not my mild mannered boy, who literally never complains about anything. My firstborn was actually ok in different nursery.

[HaroldsSocalledBluetits]

Well she did tell them he required a long settling period, which was not accommodated, and ear defenders, which was not accommodated, and that he's undiagnosed but has additional needs, again not accommodated as no strategy put in place.

I guess you could argue that it's worth one last sit down to put some kind of strategy in place but really it should have been in place by now and it isn't, ergo they've failed to accommodate his needs so the contract has been broken by them.

Plus it's all very well saying the adults can sit down and sort it out now, but because it hasn't been sorted when it should have been the OP now has a nursery refuser on her hands not because of anything she has done but as a result of the nursery's shortcomings. Which isn't the best footing to start from.

[HaroldsSocalledBluetits]

Hanna that sounds heartbreaking. Give the local authority a ring in the morning.

[hanna007]

they also have waiting list as far as I know, so would possibly be disproportionate as they can fill the place?

[Fiffyshadesofgreymatter]

You have a nursery dealing with numerous children in that term and a parent with one. So OP should have arranged a meeting the first week to talk through it all And make the plan, rather than turning up on the day and bringing it up. In a perfect world, the nursery would have initiated it but she is the child's advocate so the buck stops with her. I wouldn't have waited until the first day; I'd have had a plan in place. If the nursery wasn't open prior to the first day then id have skipped bringing the lid and just used it to speak with staff.

OP can go in with her grievances and hope the drop the charge as a goodwill gesture, but there's no need for them too. She can also bring up their refusal to accommodate and tell them they have to or she's suing.

[hanna007]

fifty: do you have legal bacground? genuine question.

[Fiffyshadesofgreymatter]

Only so far as it applies to my business as when I started up I couldn't afford to pay a solicitor to do it all for me so I learned. Have had a solicitor do it all since the business grew, but my own versions would have held up according to him. But this almost exact question has been asked on here many times, with almost the exact wording on the application/acceptance forms and the advice usually goes "you need to pay".

[HaroldsSocalledBluetits]

OP has said what her child requires. They haven't accommodated. If a meeting was needed for this then the nursery should have a system in place to flag this as a requirement and set it up. They obviously have systems for payment. They should also have systems for care. Care is the entire point of a nursery.

[hanna007]

I did visit prior to start - it was last day of previous term and hence the agreement was made that yes I can stay to settle him. I did put it on application form also (or on one of the pieces of paper that I filled in at nursery).

[HaroldsSocalledBluetits]

I mean, it's a moot point whether OP should have known about any procedures for care arrangements that should be adhered to. But the nursery certainly should have done.

[hanna007]

they also don’t have settling in policy and by the look of things fees policy as I have been chasing her for correct invoice for several weeks now.

[Fiffyshadesofgreymatter]

Then you remind them and stay! Why would you just leave? You need to be a bit more forceful in future really.

Nurseries will encourage the parents to leave; depending on the staff member who signed you in, they may not have known about that discussion. That's a failure of organisation on their part but you could easily have cleared it up.

Your kid doesn't like nursery, and that's really unfortunate but you still need to pay for leaving. If you want to fight it, then of course bring up their refusal to accommodate and their guarantee of re-filling the space from their waiting list. Threaten to instruct a solicitor. They might let you off. I'm sure you can get airlines to refund a "non refundable flight" if you can prove they managed to sell the seat to someone else... So argue it if you want, but be prepared for them to take it to small claims

[yorkshireyummymummy]

I would pay them for the four hours.
You haven’t signed a contract and they did zilch to accommodate your sons additional needs.
Since you hadn’t signed a proper contract or paid the deposit I would argue that you were checking it was suitable for your son - since he is terrified and they didnt adhere to your requests it could be argued that they broke contract/trust.
If they threaten you with legal I would just tell them you will be contacting OFSTED and the local,paper .......”Highly thought of nursery leave child with SEN alone and crying for two hours” may not be the type of publicity they want.

I know nursery’s provide - on the whole- a great service. I know they have staff etc to pay. But by god, they always weigh things massivly in their favour don’t they. My daughters old nursery used to charge for a bank holiday if it fell on one of your days - and they were shut!! So they didn’t have to pay staff but we had to pay for children to be NOT minded!
I may be flying in the face of other posters who think you should have to pay but - after the ‘ care’ your son has received it would be a cold day in hell before they got £150/a terms fees out of me! I would fight it all the way.....but that’s just me and my opinion.
Good luck.

[HaroldsSocalledBluetits]

It all sounds horribly stressful for you and your little boy. I can understand that you can't see a way of working around it with them. Would it help, do you think, to have a sit down face to face meeting to discuss how they can help him to access their provision? Eg settling period, access to aids such as ear defenders, short hours etc? If so, it's maybe worth trying again to see if you can make it work for him. If not, and I'd completely understand in the face of his obvious distress, I'd argue that actually they haven't made provision for him, even in terms of specific adjustments you have requested, and therefore you consider the contract at an end due to their limitations and you're not liable for payment.

This goes some way beyond just regular settling in, as the difficulties your ds is experiencing are due to issues which you have flagged up and which have not been addressed.

[hanna007]

Oh lady. I do understand your point.
I think I worked it out now (will check with my lawyer next week when he is back from holiday).
Application form is just that though - I remember filling in several and paying application fee. Two nurseries offered me place after I was on wait list for a while. I turned them down. No other fees to pay. I think the crucial thing is that sessions were not confirmed until a week before start date when the letter said that either pay the deposit or your lose the place and application fee. I have not paid the deposit.

To clarify, I’m willing to pay deposit, all the sessions up until today and something extra, but certainly not everything, specially as I could have just not turned up last week and not be liable and they have waitlist.