Do Black boys need separate or specialist education?

[crouchingtigeress]

Just seen newsnight with Bill Morris, Chris Woodhead and Tony Sewell (education specialist).

Both BM and CW thought that class was more an issue than race.

TS disagreed and argued that they're are middle class African-caribbean boys failing.

Any thoughts?

[DelGirl]

I think it would definately not be a good move to segregate, it could set off another generation of racist attitudes imho. Not sure what the solution is though

[mammya]

It's a very interesting topic, although I don't know enough about it to make a judgement, sometimes I think, yes, sometimes no. How's that for a well argued post!

[MunchedTooManyMarsLady]

This is one of the things that I have been trying to get my head around for years. I have fought to ensure that my son does not go the way of many black boys. I don't, however, agree with Trevor Phillips about segregating black boys. I truly think that it would be detrimental to all. I get so angry that they fail and are being failed. I remember at school being told that university was not for me. I have had conversations recently with people who have told me that me and my kind are not normal (almost slapped the woman who said that about my kids but realised that that would pander to her stereotypes). There's a good program on BBC2 at the moment about Black Intellectuals, so my mind isn't completely on this. There's a definite lack of education about black history (except in October) and I can't help but thinking that the lack of black role models in education, history etc doesn't help. I really don't think that separate is the answer. We have so much to learn from each other. We need to see black people as more than singers, rappers, sports stars etc. We need to recognise Black Intellectuals etc. Sorry, rambling now.

[mammya]

Although I have to admit to being worried about the segregation aspect.

[mammya]

Marslady about you being told you're not normal! Do people really think like that? and admit it? that makes me so

[Gwenick]

DH gets rather wound up by this subject. He's noticed, since living in the UK, that in a lot of poorer black areas many seem to 'resign' themselves to the fact that they'll fail at school, end up in crime and unemployed etc etc - and there seems to be no real desire from the older people in the communities to stop this occuring.

He reckons that a lot (not all) spend too much time listening to the black 'stereotypes' played off on the media and believing that they're being discriminated against instead of working to improve themselves.

[MunchedTooManyMarsLady]

Yes, people do admit such things sadly.

Gwenick.. I understand exactly what your DH says and I agree.

[crouchingtigeress]

I agree with TP that something needs to be done, and that there is a 'it's not cool to study culture'- I see this as a working class issue. I really don't see how putting all black boys in to one class is the answer.

This makes me sad, confused and angry, I do not want my ds to become a statistic.

I feel the current govt is trying with learning mentors, vocational courses, extra funding for poor performing schools.

i also think the black community has always tryed to combat failure with saturday schools etc.

So I think the change must come from the individual, a change in attitude. However this could come about from:
More role models (students who have come out the other end)
And most importantly strong parent support.

[Gwenick]

MTMML - it's sad isn't it

[MunchedTooManyMarsLady]

I have to say that the vocational course worry me in respect of black students. My worry is that black boys may be pushed towards these rather than being encouraged to use the academic skills that may be hidden because it's not cool to be clever. A woman I know with a son the same age as DS1 said of the school that both of our sons were trying to get into "why don't ordinary hardworking boys get in?" By ordinary she meant white. DS1 got into the school which is about 70% asian. It's a selective school and so I would guess that all of the boys are ordinary hardworking boys. But if a woman of her intelligence can say such things then it doesn't bode well for black boys.

[MunchedTooManyMarsLady]

I'm sure that your son will do well Sally, especially with you supporting him.

[crouchingtigeress]

Yes, SS, I am going through that already with just considering primary schools and have thought about the idea of private.

Fortunately the divide between top and bottom in Finchley isn't so bad. So I'll opt for more multicultural with slightly worse results due to more non-english speaking children- and hope that my home support will conpensate.

[crouchingtigeress]

MtMML your right that may well happen. But I know too many black boys who would never consider HE because they saw it as an academic route to far removed from themselves.

Vocational doesn't have to always equate with mannual, for the easier option. There is now a vocational route to practising medicine.

But there will always be a acad. v voc. debate?

[crouchingtigeress]

Sally s you're so right.
i use to work in educ.policy, each year there would be a big whohaa about boys failing, which generated much research projects.

I suppose they think girls can always resort to the traditional role of homemaker.

damn cheek, if you ask me

[MunchedTooManyMarsLady]

sally, the times they are a-changing. DS1 is in a selective school (old grammar). Just make sure that you keep on top of his studies and don't let bling culture impinge on it.

ct, I try not to get involved in the vocational/academic debate for that very reason. I just can't quite shake the fear that vocational for black boys will somehow not be much cop. Now there's something I would like to be wrong about!

[MunchedTooManyMarsLady]

see. your son will do well because he has you!

[suzywong]

I didn't see Newsnight, for obvious reasons, but I did read about TP's propsals on the BBC Website

And I have to say I think they are extremely well intentioned and while I don't think things will go as far as segregation I do think it will stimulated debate and focus on what to do about so many black boys failing and being failed.

From my 10 years in North London I could perceive that there was a predominent culture and mindset from black youth in the way that Gwenick's husband describes and I think it is, in part, up to the elders and parents within the black community to step up and provide role models for kids. (not saying this never happens, please please don't get me wrong). It was interesting to read that TP is suggesting luring more black male teachers in to the profession, I think this would be an enormous help and a great start.
My best friend's family is from St Kitz and they are a family of intellectuals and professionals and within the younger generation they have a boy at Charterhouse and others at local comps in Clacton, and it seems to be the strong family support and good example that motivates these boys to succeed above and beyond their school's imput to a large extent, Which is interesting, in so much as to go back to my earlier point about not failing black boys needs to be a concerted partnership between community, family and the education system.