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thinking of moving to Germany - any advice?

17 replies

mummyrex · 15/10/2010 16:45

Life is feeling very 'family unfriendly' in the UK so we are considering a move to near Cologne with our 6 children aged btw 2 and 13.

We won't be well off, DH will be on a teacher's salary and I won't be working. Could you all please offer some 'reality check'advice?

The children don't speak German (well, the oldest has done a couple of years in school which amounts to nothing. What are the schools like? The eldest 3 are in grammar schools here - could they cope with Gymnasium there?

Are there any costs that I might not have thought of when looking at if we'll manage on the salary?

Thanks

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battyralphie · 15/10/2010 18:53

hi, cannot think of any additional costs, they are much the same here as in the UK. In fact you may have an additional income if your dh has a regular German contract and is based for tax purposes in Germany, then I think you would get child benefit for the children, which at 184 Euros per child per month (for the first 3 and more after that) would be interesting.

Tax is higher here, but with 6 children you would be unlikely to have to pay much anyway. Paperwork is much more of a nightmare here, so if you do decide to move makes sure you have absolutely everything with you. As for the Gymmasium question it sounds pretty ambitious to expect them to cope in a German school when they dont speak German. But I dont know anything about secondary education. somebody else may be along in a minute, or you could try posting on the German and Austrian thread? Good luck!

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MmeBodyInTheBasement · 18/10/2010 17:35

Hi.

Can I ask why Cologne? Does your DH have a job there or did you just pick the town out of a hat?

Will your DH be working in a German school? Or freelance?

How much do you know about the German school system?

Basically there are three levels, Gymnasium, Realschule and Hauptschule. So depending on their ability, they would be put into the appropriate school. Not speaking German, there is a chance that they would land in the Hauptschule for a while.

Germans don't start school till 6 or 7yo, so younger DC would be fine, would have time to learn German.

They go to Kindergarten between 3 and 6yo. This will probably not cost much, as it is worked out on family income and where we were (near Cologne) only first child had to pay.

As Batty said, the Kindergeld is quite generous and you won't pay much tax since you have 6 children.

I have several friends in Cologne area so let me know if you need advice about that area.

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ZZZenAgain · 18/10/2010 17:45

If you are putting your dc in the German school system, it would be good if at least one parent has fluent German to deal with the homework and everything involved. The system is very different to the UK one in almost every way I can think of.

The smaller dc will pick up the language but your 13 year old will find it difficult going. I suspect it will be very difficult indeed to find a gymnasium willing to take a 13 year old foreign child with no German. They are however, trying to reform the German school system in many ways. Each "Land" or region is responsible for its own school system there is not country-wide curriculum etc. So you needt o find out the situation in Cologne. Some Laender have tried to improve foreign language teaching (English seems to be the main first foreign language taught), so you may find gymnasia which offer some subjects taught in English. These types of school may be more willing to accept an English speaker. In Berlin, there were Europa Schulen (as the are called) which teach in both English and German from year 1 accepting English speakers with no German through primary, however from secondary on, the dc is required to have both languages.

I would base my decision personally on whether I could find satisfactory education for the older children at an affordable price, otherwise you'll be in a pickle.

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ZZZenAgain · 18/10/2010 17:57

can't think of any costs you may not have calculated. Presume you know that Germany does not have an equivalent of the national health, so you will need to get health insurance but will provide you with (IMO) a better health service (more things covered , quicker referrals etc than NH)

Would imagine that you would be financially a bit better off in Germany than in the UK with 8 people living off 1 teacher's wage. Don't really know.

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LillianGish · 18/10/2010 17:58

Any reason why you've picked Cologne? We were in Berlin for four years which is much cheaper in terms of housing I understand. You would certainly have no trouble finding a large, affordable house/apartment in Berlin. My children were much younger when we moved there (2 and 4) - they both quickly became fluent in German in spite of being in a French school.
It was extremely family friendly, we absolutely loved living there and I can't reccommend it highly enough from that point of view. We recently went back for a visit and it was a fabulous as I remembered - so it's not just rose-tinted memories for me!
Just wanted to check that you and dh are actually married as this makes a huge difference to your tax position in Germany.

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mummyrex · 01/11/2010 13:58

Hi all and thanks for your responses which I have only just seen.

Cologne is because that is where the job is.
Didn't know about the health system (or lack of) though after recent very poor experiences with the NHS that may not be a bad thing. How much is the health insurance?

I have found that some schools advertise themselves as 'billingual' by which it seems thery mean that some subjects are taught in a second language (French, Spanish, English).

DH has very good German which I am sure would be fairly fluent in a short time.

Should I start contacting schools direct to find out what they think? Also, here a school has a catchment area - how does it work there?

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natation · 01/11/2010 16:03

Your kindergeld at 2010 rates would bring you ?1173 and it is until 18 years old, until 25 if still full time student. To me, that would be a major pulling factor, apart from the benefits of the children being bilingual, having a different way of life, parents being more satisfied in their careers.

If you do move, do try an get the child benefit agency to prepare the papers to go to Germany as early as possible, it took us 18 months to transfer to Belgian child benefit, a time during which we received nothing, finally after 18 months we got over 10k all at once, very nice but I would rather have had it over the 18 months we waited.

I would think as positive as possible on the language front. Our 12 year old has managed to become fluent enough in French in 2 years to pass exams to go to French secondary school, the younger ones in the family picked up French even quicker. I have NO regrets on choosing a local school, the children could have gone to English speaking schools at UK tax payers' expense (a saving so far of £210,000, David Cameron please note how much I saved the UK and don't be so mean about child benefit!!!!), but a local education has meant having local friends and not living in the expat bubble.

Deutsche Bahn recently sent test trains to the UK, in 2013 the through services are due to start from Koln to London.

Good luck, go for it.

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mummyrex · 02/11/2010 09:47

Thanks natation

It would have to be local schools and tbh that is what we would want anyway. However, I understand that German schools can be very unforgiving about the lack of German and are not prepared to give them the time to catch up. If you fail an academic year there you are held back I think?

I probably need to approach a school or two to gauge their reactions.

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MmeLindt · 02/11/2010 12:27

Yes, that is correct - the German schools normally expect the children to catch up and they may be kept back a year if their German is not good enough.

Saying that, the children who are already in school in UK will have a slight advantage as German DC don't start till they are 6yo.

Be careful with the "bilingual" schools. This may mean that they offer more English lessons but not that it is completely bilingual. A friend of mine has a DD at a bilingual school - they have 3 hours of English a week and one hour of Maths taught in English.

Health insurance for a teacher is different that what we pay, as employees. I am not sure how that would work, and if you and the children would all have to be insured separately.

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ZZZenAgain · 02/11/2010 12:30

they are tough on the German because if you are not able to read and write it to the standard they require, you simply cannot continue through secondary in particular covering more literary subjects such as history in those languages or indeed learning French/Latin etc which will require translation into German, correct German obviously. The curriculum is very full for secondary. Teachers I know who are German say it is literally impossible to cover the curriculum for a school year within the school year. Therefore the child will have to do a great deal of the secondary schoolwork at home. A lot of school time goes on testing, trips etc so dc have a lot to do at home.

The German school system does seem rather child unfriendly in that there is little scope for the teachers to accommodate dc who for whatever reason are not making the grade (as in passing the weekly tests to a certain standard), this is why IMO they grade and assess them so much so yes keeping them back a year, sending them down to a lower achieving type school etc is still common practice.

So that's the system. Gymnasium is of coure the strictest on grades and the most demanding in terms of work done at home. I am trying not to make a value comment on it but I think to put yourself in your 13 year old's shoes what this will mean is that a lot of school time will be writing dictation in German and doing vocabulary tests in various foreign lanauges (incl. English of course, here he has to give the translation the teacher has taught, not anything which would be possible in English), maths tests, tests at the end of each topic covered in other subjects. They test them all year and the results are calculated to get a yearly average which decides whether they can move up.

That's gymnasium and realistically, I find it hard to imagine a dc with no German managing it. Possibly if ds got a place, he would have to repeat the first year. You can explain this in terms of acquiring enough >German to confidently proceed with subjects so I don't think this need be too much of a blow for him.

I would be reluctant to give up a good grammar school place in the UK to send my child to a German Real- or indeed Hauptschule. In fact I would not do it. So find out where he would be able to go/have to go and weigh up the pros and cons. There are state Gymnasia (you apply directly to the school, they look at grades and otherwise it's up to you to convince them to take your dc. They are all over-subscribed. Then there are faith schools - evangelische Gymnasia, katholische Gymnasia where it probably helps if you are a memeber of a protestant or the RC Church, respectively. You apply directly to the school and it is up to them who they choose. They are over-subscribed. There are some private schools - cheap cf. UK and not that great IMHO on the whole. There are Gesamtschulen (comprehensive) where dc will be in classes acoording to perceived ability yet all together in one school and therefore considered comprehensive. So ds could be in the Hauptschule-branch of a comprehensive. Not good IMO.

Then there are bilingual schools or regular German state school with a bilingualer Zweig - bilingual branch so one or two subjects are taught say in English.

For the smaller dc, there is zoning and the dc will be accorded a place based on where you live. They vary enormously so really you need to find out by asking about if it is ok or look at it and if it isn't, you need to deregister at that zoned school by filling in a formular there, handing it in to the school office and writing in that formular the name of the school to which your dc will be going instead.

I might look at Montessori for the younger ones (primary) which I would take over a regular German state school personally but the problem is at some stage you need to change school system for secondary, so depends if you'll just be there for a year or two or "for good".

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ZZZenAgain · 02/11/2010 12:36

sorry that was so wordy, didn't mean to put you off. To me because I know what I meant to say it makes sense; but to you it is perhaps very confusing.

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mummyrex · 02/11/2010 19:35

Thanks ZZZen, not too wordy and very helpful :)
You have hit on the crux of the problem. I would only be willing to take the kids out of a Grammar School here if they were going into a Gymnasium there. I am fairly sure the eldest would catch up fast - but possibly not fast enough for passing the first year test. Second son is harder, although he will probably go down a year (he is mid June birthday and I think the school year cut-off is earlier in the year in Germany than in UK)however he is also dyslexic and dyspraxic and I get the feeling that the German system isn't as supportive as the UK one as regards such things.I don't think any of them would be best pleased if they had to be kept back a year.

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ZZZenAgain · 02/11/2010 19:54

Well, don't give up on it. You or dh could call a couple of schools in Cologne and ask. See what kind of response you get. Maybe it'll be positive. It need not be a gymnasium in the area in which you will actually be living, just put out some feelers and see what reaction you get?

Then you could google the area near the school dh is looking at, so Köln (such and such an area or postcode) Gymnasium and see what comes up. One which has an added language focus/specialisation might be good.

Repeating a year is called "sitzenbleiben" staying sitting. It really is not uncommon at secondary but I don't honestly know how dc find it. It is basically telling you you've failed.

Are ds 1 and ds 2 good at maths?

Some secondary schools have entrance exams (this will be in German and maths). So they could assess ds 1 on the basis of a maths test perhaps. You'd have to keep in mind that maths is taught differently in Germany (obviously the underlying facts are the same but the methods are different) and some basic small things like, for instance, 4.3 means 4x3, the sign for division is : so 12:3=4 etc. Long division is set out differently. Not major things but you could have it at the back of your mind if he was to sit a maths test

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MmeLindt · 02/11/2010 20:06

There may be others with a better knowledge of SN teaching, but from what I have seen Germany is far behind UK on this.

My nephew was diagnosed ADS, put on Ritalin. He was not allowed to go to Hauptschule, had to go to a Sonderschule which was the worst possible thing for him. He is not a bright child, but very sweet and has no violent tendencies. The Sonderschule was full of kids with varying degrees of SN, some very severe and violent. My SIL eventually took him out and put him into a Montessori school (after he had his leg broken by a pupil kicking him). He is doing much better in the Montessori.

If you could afford to put the elder ones in private (International) school at least until their German was good enough then I think it might work. It would be incredibly difficult, as ZZZen so wisely pointed out, for them to get through Gymnasium.

Isn't NRW one of the Bundesländer where they do the Abitur (Gymnasium) in 6 years rather than the earlier 7 years? Have a look here

I guess it comes down to doing your sums. You will find that with 6 DC on your DH's tax forms that he will pay little tax plus your Kindergeld income will be big. Add into that low childcare costs for the little ones.

Cologne is not too expensive to live in. We were in Düsseldorf for 3 years and our house cost just over ?800 for 3 bedroom with separate guest room and separate office (so 5 bed at a push)

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ZZZenAgain · 02/11/2010 20:09

http://www.bildung.koeln.de/schule/schullaufbahn/schulformen/gymnasium/ Cologne

I don't know the school system in Cologne but on here it says that years 5 and 6 count as trial years. At the end of year 6, they will decide whether the dc is suitable to continue at gymnasium, so it seems that decision is in the hands of the school not the parent. Every state handles school education a bit differently.

bilingual lessons
schools with that bilingualer Unterricht, I couldn't get just the gymnasium school form, some on there are Realschulen.

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ZZZenAgain · 02/11/2010 20:14

tbh I wonder how those Sonderschulen can work. I expect they have a very good teacher/pupil ratio. Would there be Integrationsschulen in Koeln, do you think or Integrationsklassen?

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HopeForTheBestExpectTheWorst · 08/11/2010 11:00

I can't add anything to the education points as my ds is still at Kindergarten, but I can say that from our pov, Germany is indeed child friendly and a lovely place to live (we are down south though).

When are you thinking of moving? Would you be able to get the dc learning German before you go over? Some sort of intentive schooling or even a summer course actually in Germany could do the world of good. A friend of mine sent her dd (14) to France for 3 or 4 weeks where she lived with a French family and spoke only French, it worked fabulously!

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