father killed in pub garden. warning - upsetting. but I am curious about a phrase in the article.

[HecatesTwopenceworth]

here

Where his family describe him as a "loveable rogue". Is that code for wrong 'un? Not that there's any reason to do that to him, and god - in front of his son ffs. What a horrible, horrible thing.

[spongebrainmaternitypants]

I would read loveable rogue as a wrong 'un yes, but, as you say, no excuse.

How utterly hideous - poor boy .

[LadyGlencoraPalliser]

Yes, it is tragic, but the phrase loveable rogue does tend to suggest petty criminal, not that that in any way makes it less awful.

[AitchTwoOh]

i agree with dittany. lively, rascally etc.

[tallulahbelly]

Dittany and AitchTwoOh - what colour is the sky in your worlds if you don't compute the phrase 'lovable rogue' when coupled with a story of someone being hacked to death in an idyliic south London pub garden with: 'violent gangster who was up to his ears in blood and crossed the wrong rival?'

Or is this an everyday occurrence down your way?

BTW I do feel sorry for his child, but I don't see what anyone else could or should do about it.

[AitchTwoOh]

oh GOD. must you be so rude? really, MUST you?

[hobbgoblin]

yes cos you were, like, there tallulah weren' you?

[tallulahbelly]

Apparently I must because you don't seem to grasp the social messages that most people filter effortlessly.

[FAQtothefuture]

well I'll join dittany and aitch in the

not automatically thinking that

"loveable rogue" = "violent gangster who was up to his ears in blood and crossed the wrong rival"

so what if it wasn't an idyllic sarf london pub - not everyone has a nice little pub in their locality

[AitchTwoOh]

oh piss off. (you'll have grasped that, no doubt).

i think it's most unlikely that the father of a murdered man is wanting to send the message that his son was a criminal.

that does not preclude his son being a criminal, of course, indeed the manner of his death suggests that he knew some very unsavoury characters.

but you cannot infer that from the father's statement alone, nor should you, as his father was more likely to be trying to intimate the opposite, that his son was not a wrong 'un. here is his quote in full, seems to me to be very fond indeed.

"The victim's father, retired firefighter Roger Stevenson, 54, described his son as a "loveable rogue".

Mr Stevenson told the Sutton Guardian: "He was loved by lots of people. He was a very popular man, he was everybody's friend. He was always laughing."

[Rindercella]

So Tallulah, the erm, fact that this man was a "violent gangster who was up to his ears in blood and crossed the wrong rival?, in some way mitigates the rather stronger fact that he was hacked to death in front of his 7 year old son, his father and his girlfriend?

[liahgen]

I think alot of my exH's friends and family would refer to him as a Loveable rougue.

In reality he a nasty, car thief amongst otherr things who would think nothing of kicking ten bells out of someone in a pub garden.

poor kid.

[hobbgoblin]

I did a horrified double take at this thread because there was an 'incident' in the garden of my village pub on Sunday evening. We took the children (all 7 of them!) there for crisps and Britvic after a walk in the woods but had to leave because a small group were getting a bit lairy. Ambulance and Police were called and seemed to involve a glassing.

And this is leafy Hertfordshire so am inclined not to make huge assumptions really.

[AitchTwoOh]

god, it's just horrific, isn't it? it's like something out of the manson family.

[tallulahbelly]

Hobgoblin I'm going to try to explain using words and phrases from the report that, though I admit might be inaccurate, are all I have to go on because, as you say I weren't, like, there. Because I have more fucking brains these days.

"loveable (sic) rogue". Where I grew up this was akin to 'general trader' but not quite as smart.

"He was loved by lots of people. He was a very popular man, he was everybody's friend. He was always laughing." With like-minded people, like.

A 30-year-old woman, whose boyfriend was a friend of the dead man, said a fight "got out of hand". Sorry, how do disagreements get so 'out of hand' that two men drag you out of a bar and hack you to death with machetes for no reason at all?

Blame it on my scurrilous background.

[hobbgoblin]

ok

[tallulahbelly]

Dittany - I think his dad thinks it's an occupational hazard.

Rinder - no, it doesn't. But I don't see why I should take more responsibility than the boy's family or necessarily weep for him unless they are prepared to do so. They haven't offered any comment on that. But maybe they ran out of space in the Sutton Gazette.

Aitch - no, it's not something like out of the Manson family. Those murders had different motivations those that this one appears to have had.

[edam]

Am with Dittany and Aitch, presumably the father didn't quite mean to imply his son was dodgy in any way. There's a woman quoted who said he was 'a bit of a joker', maybe that's what the father was thinking. But he'd seen his own son hacked to death, it's unlikely he was concentrating very carefully on his exact phraseology.

Wouldn't assume the manner of his death said anything about the victim. Could have been mistaken for someone else - the attackers were clearly beyond all reason, so can't see that there is anything necessarily logical in their choice of victim or actions.

[AitchTwoOh]

you are mental, tallulah. you haven't the foggiest idea what caused those murders.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Actually, from reading the article, I would be inclined to think that the paper is indicating something dodgy about the victim. Mind you, while 'lovable rogue' could imply 'charming daring wheeler dealer armed robber' it could also imply 'total fanny rat who can't keep it in his pants' as the other motive for such a violent attack could be sexual jealousy ie he was having sex with the partner of a violent man with violent friends.

[liahgen]

A pub landlord I knew in days of Ex was burned to death in his own pu by blokes out for revenge cos he was seeing one of thier ex's. They were all in the same crowd, they all knew what they were capable of.

The killers didn't know or care who was in the pub with him that night.

My ex threatened to have my current dh kneecapped when we first started going out. Don't know why he didn't, maybe cos I know too much about him and his friends.

These kind of people know what they are dealing with mostly, ime. Random strangers don't usually get machetted to death in front of their families for nothing. (mostly)

Ob don't know the background, but i'm sure stuff will come to light at a leter date that we may or may not ever get to hear about.

[AitchTwoOh]

why did you marry him then, lia? presumably 'these kind of people' are loved by somebody sometime? particularly their seven year old children?