*sigh* Jeremy Clarkson is off on one again, do we have a thread yet?!

[DorynownotFloundering]

bit of info

Now I defend his right to have his own vile opinions but this will start a shit storm of abuse against transkids and their parents yet again and by putting said opinions, and factually incorrect statements in a Sunday paper column is just not on. (if entirely in character)

Funnily enough it's been pulled from all the online editions today.

[ProfessorPreciseaBug]

We had managed to avoid that...... until

[espressodilaresso]

I agree with him. And many people agree with him.

It is getting ridiculous now - I saw the phrase "peak trans" earlier which really struck a chord - people are at peak trans now!

And we can't speak up else we get accused of being all sorts, while women's rights are eroded.

Children at that age want to be all sorts of things. It's normal. Whatever happened to responsible parenting?

[FloraFox]

It won't start abuse against trans kids because people who think transing children is child abuse do not want to harm children.

[Alfieisnoisy]

It was a rant by him as always. All the rubbish he spouted about parents getting their children surgery for a start. If he'd done ANY reading at all he would know that this is not the first response of health services but the very last thing they'd do for a child. As far as I know only an adult can consent to gender reassignment surgery for themselves. It's not done for children afaik.

It's the usual non researched bollocks from a mysogonistic dinosaur. The man is best ignored.

[QueenLaBeefah]

He's got a point.

[Alfieisnoisy]

No he hasn't "got a point". It was a poorly researched rant. No better than the crap which Britain First comes out with.
You cannot get gender reassignment surgery for children (at least not in the UK). The most basic of reading around the subject would have told the dickhead exactly that. But hey why would he let facts inform him when he needs a good rant. Idiot man can't stand him.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Matt Lucas tweeted about it? Is that the Matt Lucas who took the piss out of cross-dressers / trans women in his sketch shows?

[Pipistrella]

I saw quite a nice article on the news a week or two ago, about a 6yo child who was born male but wanted to be a girl.

It was touching and convincing and her parents seemed like genuine, sane types, from that snapshot.

However I was looking for something to suggest what 'being a girl' actually meant to this child, and all I could see was that she wore dresses, and had long hair, and liked playing with dolls.

I don't see the harm in a child doing any of that. The harm AFAIC comes when parents educate a child to believe that this is what makes a girl, a girl. Somewhere along the line, did their son express an interest in playing with dolls and having long hair, and they told him he couldn't, because that's what little girls do?

I don't know, but nothing I saw would seem to indicate otherwise.

I think that's really sad if so. It's like if a little girl wanted to wear trousers and was told they couldn't because you had to be a boy, and that made her think, well, I want to be a boy, then.

That would be bonkers.

[DorynownotFloundering]

Alfie - as I suspected all the MN anti- trans brigade came out on this thread again.

Whatever your views on ANYTHING, as a public figure you have a responsibility to do your research properly and not incite hatred against ANYONE in society. He could have still made his point in a much more thoughtful piece but then subtlety is not his style.

The feminist concerns about women only spaces is a valid one but why is it always trotted out as the biggest concern about trans issues?

There are many many female > male transmen who get caught up in this vitriol, and trans children should not have to suffer abuse from the like of this ignoramus while they are struggling with the many issues they already have.

espresso responsible parenting means supporting your child through their worries/problems and getting them the best psychological support you can to get them to a happy healthy state. For many children it ends up NOT transitioning (great!) and growing up to be whatever they were meant to be and are happy with, not what a parent dictates. The key is to listen.

No trans parent rushes into anything, it is not a) possible on the NHS in the UK & b) highly expensive elsewhere in the world. No surgery is agreed to without several experienced doctors signing off on it and certainly not until way past 16 in most countries. Hormones are not handed out like sweeties as everyone seem to think & comparing trans-children to prostitutes is despicable

Please do not lump all transwomen/men/kids in the same boat and please do not encourage the sort of ill-informed outburst that JC spouts

[OTheHugeManatee]

Sorry but I think forcing children to take puberty blockers that will sterilise them, simply because they don't conform to gender stereotypes, is child abuse.

[DorynownotFloundering]

Pipstrella but that's the point if the child wanted to dress as a girl & play with what she felt were girls toys, however that manifested itself, then that's good.

It may allow her to explore how that makes her feel & if she is happier like that then what's the harm.She may well grow out of it if she is supported to feel it is her choice, but equally if she DOESN"T grow out of it she will know her parents are still there for her to help her become whoever she wants to be.

[OTheHugeManatee]

The parents may be well-meaning but so, I'm sure, were the parents of Victorian girls who sent their daughters for clitoridectomy to stop them masturbating. Good intentions don't prevent something being abusive.

[DorynownotFloundering]

manatee forcing children to take ANY medication is abuse yes but where are these poor abused kids?

Children are not "forced" to do anything, that's absurd thinking.

Do you know how difficult it is to get a referral to a gender clinic & how many hoops you have to jump through in the UK ( quite rightly ) as a parent to just get specialist advice??

[DorynownotFloundering]

manatee yes and nowadays to prevent that sort of abuse there are all sorts of checks to prevent that sort of thing, quite rightly.

The child is at the centre of any discussion, and the doctors discuss with them more than with the parents a lot of the time, and there are independent assesments by GP's psychologists, psychiatrists. if any child were being forced it would soon be picked up and appropriate referral made. ( I am UK based so obv only speak for what we have here)

Believe me parents do NOT do this without much anguish & soul searching and discussion.

If you don't agree with it that is your perogative but please have some respect for the struggles that many families go through, and the fact that loud mouthed ill informed bigots like Clarkson can make life very difficult for us, as many of his knuckle-dragging supporters will take it a fact and justify their abuse of our children.

[OTheHugeManatee]

OK let me rephrase. Giving children puberty blockers, rather than helping them express themselves however they feel comfortable and coming to terms with their bodies, is colluding in an abuse precipitated by our culture's frankly bizarre attitude to sex role stereotypes.

I'm sorry if this issue affects you personally and I feel nothing but compassion for your child's struggles. But what's out of whack here is societal strictures on behaviour according to sex, not your child's body.

[Pipistrella]

You've missed my point entirely.

Pipstrella but that's the point if the child wanted to dress as a girl & play with what she felt were girls toys, however that manifested itself, then that's good

What exactly do you mean by 'dressing as a girl' and 'girls' toys'?

What's wrong with letting a little boy wear dresses and play with dolls, and him still be counted as a boy? Mine have all played with dolls and pushchairs and worn tutus and dresses when they felt like it. It doesn't mean I should tell them that actually they are girls.

[Pipistrella]

You know, because being a girl means you actually have a vagina and so on - not that you like wearing dresses.

[Purplecan4]

It's a very very difficult issue.

On the one hand, there are people who are nothing like their sex. Have nothing in common with those of the same sex, behave rather like the opposite sex. But. That does not mean they necessarily want to transition or think they are in the wrong body. They can be happy as they are. Or they might desperately want to transition.

Generally if a child has any issues surrounding gender, I think they should dress how they like, play with what they like and go to a mixed school and choose friends they like. See how they go, have a medical professional involved and counsellor to record their feelings over a number of years etc so that when the time comes to make a decision regarding irreversible stuff like hormone preventing puberty treatment/surgery that they are 100% happy with it.

I do know a child in this situation. The child is has their clothes/hair how they like. They can decide what to do in the future. Everyone around them accepts them as they are.

I don't think Jeremy is much of an authority on this subject!

[WhoTheFuckIsSimon]

Interesting responses.

There was a thread on here recently from someone with a 4yo boy who liked wearing dresses, etc. So she now referred to him as a girl, had given him a girls name and was going to tell school I think to refer to him as a girl.

Many, many posters pointed out that perhaps it was too early and that referring to him as a girl, etc could well be confusing. That perhaps it would be better off to just allow him to be a boy who likes wearing dresses for now and see how it goes. That there is no need to change his name and gender and that doing so is actually gender stereotyping......that boys can't wear dresses.

Personally ive known two boys who at primary school age were quite feminine, liked playing with dolls, dress up, etc. Both are now grown and show no sign of being transgender.

[WhoTheFuckIsSimon]

And as a child I wanted to be like George from the Famous Five. Insisted on a derivative of my main name which could be either gender. Had short hair, wore my brothers cast offs, had sword fights, climbed trees, said I wanted to be a boy.

Thankfully my parents never, ever considered puberty blocking drugs.

I'm very happy being a woman.

[FloraFox]

No trans parent rushes into anything

How have you established this?

[BadDoGooder]

This is where, for me, trans sort of rubs against what I hate most, gender stereotyping.
As pp have said, it worries me that rather than moving towards a much more gender fluid society (wear and do what you want, identify yourself as what you want, sleep with who you want, no more stereotypical boys/girls activities etc) we are instead reinforcing those stereotypes.
Instead of saying "play with/ wear whatever you like, regardless of born gender" we seem to now be saying "interested in dolls and dresses? You must be a girl" which is really not where I expected this to go!
@WhoTheFuck I too wanted to be George! I could have written your post word for word!
I wanted to be a boy for years, had short hair etc
The interesting thing is, at over 30, I still dress and have my hair in a very androgynous way, but I don't feel the need to identify as a "man" (I like having boobs and a vagina!)
I like what might be termed "men's" pursuits, but this where I want us to stop having to identify things as "men's" and "women's"....I had hoped we'd be way beyond that soon!
I am also bisexual, but have a male partner.
I think I just want a world where the balance between people feeling able to be themselves, and peoples (women's especially) rights to privacy and safety is the right one.
And I really don't want kids having the dress/long hair=girl trousers/cropped hair=boy stuff rammed down their throats.
Equally, if someone really does need/want to live in the opposite gender, they should be able to do so without fear of violence or discrimination.

[Pipistrella]

Thats what I meant, Bad.

It feels like the whole thing has become very reductive and that the loudest voices are coming from those without enough intelligence to go back one step along the chain, and see that it isn't a problem with what people wear or do, it's a problem with classifying these things according to gender.

[Seriouslyffs]

Dory
Do you know how difficult it is to get a referral to a gender clinic & how many hoops you have to jump through in the UK ( quite rightly ) as a parent to just get specialist advice??
The trouble is it doesn't seem to be difficult. And once there they seem to do a very bad job of identifying who is transgender and who is not conforming to gender stereotype and who is gay.

[DorynownotFloundering]

seriously and you base this statement on what?
Average waiting time for a referral is 12-18 months before they even START assessment by specialists.

Puberty blockers are not used lightly, and certainly NOT instead of counselling but alongside, where the emotional distress of going through puberty would be detrimental to the child's mental health.