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4 sisters returned to Italian father after their Australian Mum took them to Australia.....dragged kicking and screaming onto the plane.

(810 Posts)
AmberLeaf Fri 05-Oct-12 00:59:59

Apparently the girls aged between 9-15 are dual citizens.

Link sorry its the DM.

Do they not take the childs view into account in Australia?

ShhhhhGoBackToSleep Fri 05-Oct-12 14:57:25

The mother was incredibly selfish. I can see it must be really hard to stay in a foreign country when the relationship breaks down but if you choose to have children in a different country that's just how it works.

Funny how no one has mentioned how the children were taken away from everything they know, their friends and their school when the mother originally took then [hmmm]

Those poor children :-(

ScatterChasse Fri 05-Oct-12 14:57:41

I think the girls do need to go back to Italy for the custody arrangements but I think the way it has happened was awful.

Surely the children would have been better to have known when they were going, exactly what/how long they were going for and have somebody supporting them to travel with (their mother in the best case, but at least someone they know well and knew would be accompanying them) and just what was going to happen in general. I think how it's been done was far more distressing than it needed to be and it will really affect the way they behave when they arrive in Italy.

I can't see how anybody will get a good outcome from this unfortunately sad

domesticgodless Fri 05-Oct-12 14:58:20

good lord skippy if you were one of my family law undergrads you'd get a fail!!

Not for agreeing with the decision, but for citing case law which has entirely different facts and making a blanket judgement about this case, then admitting you 'haven't actually read much about it'...(some of my student do do this sort of thing in essay questions. They do not pass them)

And they say a degree isn't worth anything anymore eh? Well it would certainly improve the legal reasoning of some people on here.

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue Fri 05-Oct-12 15:00:55

er, I am not a family law undergraduate, I am someone spouting off an a message board.

Bit of a difference in terms of expectations, don't you think?

Hullygully Fri 05-Oct-12 15:01:22

When did the wishes of the children stop being taken into account?

One of them is 15. Ridiculous.

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue Fri 05-Oct-12 15:02:46

That would be at the point when the mother abducted the children from another country instead of going for a custody hearing where the views would have been taken into account.

As it appears they now will be, when the custody hearing is held in Italy.

Redsilk Fri 05-Oct-12 15:05:21

As a divorced parent of four children with an abusive ex-dh, I find the whole situation very distressing, especially the mum's selfish behavior. I cannot fathom how a mother could recklessly stir up her dc's into such an emotional frenzy, making them feel they were being sent off to Auschwitz never to see her again. It as an abuse of a mother's responsibility. She should have calmed them and told them that she would always be there for them, and told them she would be traveling to Italy to be with them.
Her threat of "I won't go because I'll be arrested" is...pardon me for B.S. Italy doesn't arrest mothers; the father said he wouldn't pursue charges; and even if she faced this threat, what real parent would not risk arrest for the sake of their children! To tell her daughters, "my fear of being arrested is greater than my love for you" - of course the daughters were traumatised.
From what I can tell from Italian press and Google Translate , the mother has "affido congiunto" (joint custody) in Italy.
I started out reading about this case being sympathetic to the mother. I now believe she is a self-centered, trashy parent.
And I also bet that she returns to Italy and this whole "arrest" business turns out to be a disgusting bluff to make her daughters panic.

Hullygully Fri 05-Oct-12 15:06:58

Mothers behave badly

Fathers behave badly

Ask the children what they want and let them decide.

needanswers Fri 05-Oct-12 15:07:07

Some of the comments on this threa are massively racist.

Hullygully Fri 05-Oct-12 15:08:10

I haven't rtft

In fact I think I won't.

There is a lot of gleeful mother-hating

A lot more men abduct children than women.

Thistledew Fri 05-Oct-12 15:08:35

As an aside, for those people who are moved by the plight of loving parents being separated from their children, be aware that our government is moving towards abolishing the Human Rights Act, and so doing away with the protection of article 8, which protects our right to a family life. This will make it much easier for them to remove people who are parents from the UK, even when doing so will split a family and cause children to lose the care of a loving parent, and potentially mean the parent never seeing the child again.

Please bear this in mind if you hear the government talking about doing away with this important piece of legislation.

TheHumancatapult Fri 05-Oct-12 15:09:19

I know the other side my friends children were taken on holiday , she never got them back hauge convention not apply

Eventually got her daughter back age 18 but by then was to late for her son he was very much his fathers child

So I can see viewpoint of why the judge returned them

AmberLeaf Fri 05-Oct-12 15:14:55

^When she removed the kids from Italy she did so with the Austrilaian embassy's help, the embassy even moved their flight to the day before because they were worried the father might turn up.
I read another artical the the decision was partly based on both parents being suicidal ( plus the father being accused of being abusive) surrounding the death of their child said to be their third oldest. The implication being it was best for the mother to be home in Austrailia with her family and that the children should be with her.
While the father may have believed they were going on Holiday, the Austrilian embassy and family knew it was permant^

That would make her actions more understandable.

I agree with LT Eve that regardless of the rights or wrongs of the parents it is the children that matter here and they clearly dont want to return to Italy.

I think its very telling that the older girls are so against returning to their father.

AmberLeaf Fri 05-Oct-12 15:16:57

,,,and yes why would the father not be there to take his daughters back to Italy if it is indeed them he cares opposed to 'beating' their Mum?

LtEveDallas Fri 05-Oct-12 15:17:45

Her threat of "I won't go because I'll be arrested" is...pardon me for B.S. Italy doesn't arrest mothers; the father said he wouldn't pursue charges; and even if she faced this threat, what real parent would not risk arrest for the sake of their children! To tell her daughters, "my fear of being arrested is greater than my love for you" - of course the daughters were traumatised

Actually some Italian villages have their own police service that can and do 'arrest mothers' . I was arrested in Italy for their version of indecent exposure. I was wearing a long skirt and vest top. My 'punishment' was to pay a (rather large) fine and to leave the area. If I didn't I wouldn't get may passport back.

I was 18 and travelling before settling down. Hopefully times have changed since 1990 (I have never been back) but what if they haven't?

I hope that the courts deciding the outcome of the custody case are International.

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue Fri 05-Oct-12 15:18:50

From an italian source via google translate:

"Laura and Thomas they met fifteen years ago while vacationing with her ​​in Italy. They got married and gave birth to four daughters, born and raised in Italy. But in June 2010, the woman, after a period of crisis in their marriage, brought the girls to Australia claiming to want to do a one month holiday with small, but not reported ever in Italy, preventing her husband also only see the children. The Hague Convention, which Italy and Australia have signed treats these actions to the abduction of minors and, for this reason, the host country would have a duty to immediately refer the child to the original one."

"But in recent years the Garrett not has never given: first he tried to paint her husband as a violent, then once been wrong by the courts, has reached the point of hiding the children to the authorities. Have been many complaints that every time made ​​it possible to freeze the execution of sentences she always unfavorable. Thomas Vincenti had the opportunity to embrace the children only five months ago. "We understand that this time, the judges' decision should be final, we are waiting for the hour the news of girls boarding on a plane," explained the family Vincenti. "I am overwhelmed by emotion - Thomas says - justice, after a long ordeal more than two years has prevailed. This is a beautiful moment for me, for my family and for girls. But until I have some news that will be on a plane will not be able to stay completely calm. " "

"Thomas Winning, at this time is in Italy: he had indeed traveled to Brisbane last week to attend hearings of the Family Court, but was right back at home because he did not expect a decision so quickly. Moreover, after two years of fighting, only a month ago, he said not to expect anything from the Australian justice and that he felt mocked by the judges, who while giving him reason, made ​​sure to delay the enforcement of judgments, agreeing to evaluate the constant appeals ex-wife, although they were issues that adhered only to the Italian justice system. In fact, Laura Garrett, who according to the chronicles Australian would burst into tears at the verdict, once in Italy, if he wants, can assert his case on custody of the children before the Juvenile Court of Florence. Thomas Vincenti had said many times: "If I can bring them back home, he did not stop you never see their mother."

domesticgodless Fri 05-Oct-12 15:19:41

the mother may well be a nasty piece of work. We don't know anything for sure here.

How bizarre to assume that she 'stirred up' the girls into a 'frenzy' etc. Can you imagine your own children in this situation? Being sent out of their country to a man they obviously don't like very much? Because they were living with him 2 years ago and it's pretty unlikely the evil mother could have warped teenage minds against him in that length of time.

What the hell happened to child welfare? I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face.

domesticgodless Fri 05-Oct-12 15:20:25

urk google translate is such a word salad!

domesticgodless Fri 05-Oct-12 15:24:16

the bit that chills me in above word salad is when he says 'this is a beautiful moment for me and the girls'

?! Obviously not for the girls, mate.

I think that as Amber says this is probably a man concerned to 'win' above all. The fact that the mother may also be a w*nker doesn't change that.

Hullygully Fri 05-Oct-12 15:27:12

yy domestic

LittleBairn Fri 05-Oct-12 15:32:11

For those pointing out that the mother won't go to Italy, the father hasn't even visited them in Austrilia. It doesn't seem like he has made any other contact other than to demand there return to Italy.

I'm hoping the Italian judge sees how distressed he girls are and sends them home to their mother.

ZZZenAgain Fri 05-Oct-12 15:33:44

terrible. Wrong decision IMO and very badly handled.

domesticgodless Fri 05-Oct-12 15:33:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue Fri 05-Oct-12 15:34:56


"The girls, born in Italy, had been placed in joint custody by the court. In the summer of 2010, the woman, with the excuse to bring on vacation a month in Australia has effectively stolen his father, refusing to take them back.

THE FATHER IS RIGHT - As mentioned by Gonews his father at this point turned to the Australian justice to try to get her daughters. Recall that are in joint custody, so theoretically neither parent has rights "superior" and that the small, born in Italy, are subject to the Hague Convention. Justice has sided with Vincenzi stating that the "removal" of the mother was illegal. The Family Court ruled that the mother was in violation of the Hague Convention against the abduction of children, not having received the legal consent of the former husband.

THE TRIALS OF MOTHER - Nothing to say, then. The law is clear and the man can return to Australia to recover small. Instead, on his arrival in Brisbane, the bitter realization. The daughters had disappeared while his ex-wife, who has kept on the strictest confidentiality, sparked a media war to influence public opinion and the work of judges in order to hope for a judgment in its favor dictated by emotions but in spite of any law that could actually open the game, extending dramatically the time of the case and forcing the girls to stay in Australia."

At this point, in May, she hid the children to prevent this judgement being executed.

"We spoke with the lawyer Vincenzi, Elena Zazzeri, which explained that "one of Garrett is an attempt to extend dramatically the time of justice hoping to stay with the girls. We can not forget that the grandmother said days ago that rather than give them to the father would rather kill them. We do not understand why the High Court has decided to accept this case is not based on any legal basis. Or rather, we understand that this is all media hype organized by the son of the mother with the aim of raising public awareness. ""

'Non possiamo poi dimenticare che la nonna ha dichiarato giorni fa che piuttosto che darle al padre preferirebbe ucciderle'

I don't speak Italian but it appears fairly clear that that means 'to kill'.

There is a lot of xenophobic innuendo here, the unstated implication being that it would be wrong to let children be return to Italy, as if it is some kind of barbarous third world hole.

"the mother did everything to "stir up" the public so that they are not alone in her battle. E 'was also born a Facebook page called " Kids Without Voice "in which she, along with family and friends, trying in every way to make their own reasons. E 'was opened a subscription to meet the legal costs, although some claim to be free, and the nothingness discussions between separated parents fighting for custody of the children. The issue of contention is simple: according to the woman, the court did not listen to the voice of daughters under which prefer to stay in Australia rather than in Italy. Other users, however, suffer from a kind of "censorship" against all those who express opinions different from those of the family Garrett."

The father (or someone who supports him) has his own Facebook page:

AmberLeaf Fri 05-Oct-12 15:44:00

DomesticGodless, yes I saw that bit, do you know why? is that standard in cases like this?

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