What type are these roses and how should I prune them?

[ahagwearsapointybonnet]

I have 2 roses where I'm not quite sure what type they are and therefore how to prune them, and also they both have some additional pruning complications! So any suggestions welcome. (I've already done my other 2, which I know more about - but these were both here when we moved in so I don't know the variety or anything).

Rose 1 grows up the front of the house and easily up to the first-floor windows. It has fairly big pink flowers which look similar to hybrid tea flowers, and I'd say the stems look fairly similar too, and it's growing through/tangled up with a clematis montana. It usually flowers once, towards the end of/just after the clematis flowering - so I think that's around June if I remember right. According to the previous owners it would sometimes flower again later in the year if well looked after, but it hasn't done recently.
I'm not sure whether hybrid teas can grow that big or whether the height means it must be a climber? (I don't think it's a rambler as I think they have different stems and habit? But not an expert).
The added complications in this case are that a) it's all tangled up with the clematis, which of course needs pruning at a different time, too, and b) neither of them have been pruned for a fair while. I meant to sort them out last year, but some dratted pigeons made a nest in there, so I couldn't do it till they and the (second lot of) babies had moved out and then kind of missed the moment! So they are both very overgrown and both have very thick, woody stems at the base and I'm not really sure how/when I should be tackling them both. (Also the pigeons have been threatening to move back in, as I didn't yet manage to remove the nest from last year! So if they do, that may delay things again...). Another complication of course is that I'll need to get up a ladder to sort out the top parts (even if I prune hard and cut them both off low down, I will need to remove the chopped off stuff from higher up, presumably).

Rose 2 is also quite tall and reaches well over my head, and is growing unfortunately on the wrong side of a trellis fence. It also has quite large pink flowers, again looking similar to hybrid tea flowers I would say, and similar stems. So again I'm not sure whether it actually IS a hybrid tea that has just got very tall, or whether that means it's likely to be a climber? It is obviously a different type though, as it flowers pretty much continually from Summer right through to the winter, unlike the one at the front.
The complication with this one is that, as well as not knowing what type it is and how I should be treating it, I want to get as much of it as possible to go through the trellis (or above it) so we can see the flowers; but I'm not sure whether that's better done by not pruning it too hard so the bits which are currently poking through the trellis will stay on the right side, or whether I should cut it back hard and then try to train the new growth in the right direction when it starts to regrow.
Any thoughts please?

PS you're probably thinking it's very late for pruning roses - well yes , partly because I was dithering about how to do them - but also we are up North so I deliberately do them a bit later than I would otherwise (and we've still had frosts lately), so hopefully I can still get away with it if I'm quick...

PPS I will try to add some photos later if I can, though I don't think I've got any with them in flower unfortunately.

[woodencoffeetable]

climbing roses can go really tall.
tbh you don't 'need' to prune roses much ime, just keep dead heading after flowering.
give it a shrub feed now and after it finished flowering.

[MereDintofPandiculation]

Rose 1 is a climber. You don't necessarily need to remove the chopped stuff - it will eventually breakdown and disappear, though not for several years, and won't look beautiful while it's doing it. But there's no way I can get up into my Sorbus to get the Clematis out, so I keep it in check by choosing a fist sized stem at random and cutting it through at the base.

My mother used to tell me there were two times for pruning roses 1) in autumn, with the risk that new growth in the early spring would be nippped off by frost 2) in spring, with the risk that wind rock would carve a cavity round the roots, which would fill with water and cause the roots to rot. So the time of pruning would depend which was the greater problem in your garden, frost or wind.

Rose 2 sounds like the one my mother told me was Queen Elizabeth - used to be very popular(it seemed every garden had one) and tends to grow tall - it's really difficult to turn it back into a nice bush shape once it's got tall and leggy.
www.all-my-favourite-flower-names.com/queen-elizabeth-rose.html

[ahagwearsapointybonnet]

Haven't got time to read properly just now but wanted to say thanks for the responses, sounds helpful and I'll look at them properly later!

[UterusUterusGhali]

I’m always suggesting this, but the David Austin site is good for whittling down roses, although I can’t see a climber that looks like a HT and flowers once on it.

[steppemum]

For the climber combined with the montana.

I would chop them both back hard after they have both flowered. While this is not idela timing for the rose, it will be fine, in my experience both of these are tough plants that will spring back.

I chopped a massive montana almost to the base, and it has grown back vigorously. They flower on last year's stems, so you chop just after flowering.
If you don't want to be so harsh, cut them in sections, so one thick stem this year, and then another stem next year etc

[ppeatfruit]

Lucky you they sound lovely! Yes as steppe says I'd chop them together, it sounds as it you couldn't do otherwise watching out for the pigeon's nest, of course.

The wood pigeons are going a bit potty here looking for nesting sites, one was sitting on the pine stump just outside the door like a woodpecker!!

[ppeatfruit]

I'm soo pleased that I heard the cuckoo for the first time this year this morning.

The other rose will probably survive WHENEVER you prune it. I've discovered that to be the case with all the number of different types I've got. I just go in if they look in need if you see what I mean. They've never died so I reckon it's fine

[ahagwearsapointybonnet]

They are rather lovely yes! Especially for the brief time that the rose and clematis are both flowering together

I think you're right and I'll need to tackle them both together after flowering/after the pigeons move out (though they still seem to be dithering about whether to move in at the moment! They were both sat in the nest together canoodling the other day, but today it's been empty every time I went past. Although I think a sparrowhawk or something has caught one in our garden - several feathers around - so not sure whether that was one of that pair or one of the many others.) I might see how it goes and decide at the time whether to chop them very hard or just take out a certain number of the thick stems.

As for the other one, MereDint I think you might be right about the Queen Elizabeth, it does look a lot like it! And I have noticed that the new stems are very red, though the older ones look more green. If that's right then your link says not to cut it back too much, only by about 1/3 of its height, which would mean I could keep the bits that are poking through the trellis so that we hopefully get at least some of the flowers on the right side later!

I don't think wind rock is really a problem for either of them, as one is sheltered by (and fixed to) the house, and the other is supported and sheltered by the trellis at least to an extent.

I'll try to look at the David Austin site later too, but am about to get chased off the PC again - everyone's wanting it now all the school work and activities are online only

Thanks all for the good advice!

[ahagwearsapointybonnet]

Bit late but I did get some photos! This is rose 1 (and clematis)

[yamadori]

Large pink hybrid-tea-looking climbing rose? Could be climbing Queen Elizabeth, I've got one. It had a massive haircut last autumn because the arbour it was on decided to collapse. It's grown about a foot already this year.

It's not too late to prune - maybe reduce about one in three of the stems to half their height this year, and do the same for the next two years. That way you won't shock it too much. There's probably some deadwood and crossing branches that could do with attention as well.

[ahagwearsapointybonnet]

Damn, photos didn't work, trying again...