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To think we NEED immigration

(55 Posts)
ReallyTired Sat 30-Jul-16 00:55:24

Our population is increasing because people are living longer. Our birth rate is very low and our population would plummet without migration in ten years time. Our death rate is increasing as the baby boomers get older. We need enough people to financially support all the extra pensioners who are too old to work.

The problem our country has is that far too many people want to live near London. The U.K. has space, but not in the south east. We need to encourage more people to move to less densely populated parts of Wales, Scotland, north west, north east England. We need to encourage more employment in these areas.

contortionist Sat 30-Jul-16 08:29:11

Perhaps we could move old people away from the South East and then the associated health & care jobs would move with them.

ReallyTired Sat 30-Jul-16 09:08:32

Plenty of elderly people do move away from the south east. They sell their over priced houses to release equity. However a community needs both young and old people. We need a range of decent jobs across the country.

Maybe certain parts of the country could have lower rates of corporation tax and business rates to encourage business in deprived areas.

lljkk Sat 30-Jul-16 09:34:43

I live in a lots of old people but few immigrants place.
It completely skews the economy and types of jobs available.

RortyCrankle Sat 30-Jul-16 14:30:24

contortionist
Perhaps we could move old people away from the South East and then the associated health & care jobs would move with them.

'Old people' aren't a homogenous mass to be moved around at your convenience.

I lived all my working life in London, now in one of the Home Counties and I have no desire to be moved thank you very much.

I suggest you move.

prettybird Sat 30-Jul-16 14:49:03

That would assume a serious regional development policy from Westminster. hmm

Regional Selective Assistance, supported from EU funds was an attempt to address the imbalance created by the magnetic effect of London.

But we've just voted against the EU support - and have to hope that the government will be equally committed to supporting "poorer" areas and will make up the difference. In a time of increased austerity and (probably) reduced GDP due to the Brexit-induced recession hmm

Forgive my cynicism. sad

Coffeethrowtrampbitch Sat 30-Jul-16 15:04:39

You are correct. I believe I read a report which said the EU needed at least 50 million migrants by 2030, if we are to continue with standards of living anywhere near the ones we have at the moment.

But it would require a change in government policy, and they are still wedded to blaming migration for their own policy failures.

Migrants pay tax, 80 per cent of migrants work and they contribute 24p a minute to the economy, but that is ignored in favour of blaming them for the shortage of medical care, schooling and housing we have experienced due to austerity.

It would take a long time to change that narrative so that migration was seen as a positive thing, and by then we will have such a proportion of elderly people to working people it may not be possible to introduce enough working people to the population in time to make a difference.

missmoon Sat 30-Jul-16 22:45:39

Yes! It's so frustrating. The Brexit negotiations are all about paying (in reduced trade or losing part of the City) in order to reduce immigration, or in other words, paying to make ourselves worse off.

proudnewMNaddict Sat 30-Jul-16 22:49:52

Yes we need CONTROLLED immigration and the right to come into Britain and rinse the benefits system needs to be scrapped.
People can be as naive or liberal as they like - there have been many reports of immigrants coming to this country claiming umpteen amounts of benefits and working cash in hand. The Australians and Americans control immigration why shouldn't we?

Peregrina Sat 30-Jul-16 23:10:19

and working cash in hand

I don't think we need to look to immigrants for this. Plenty of UK citizens seem to think that this is quite acceptable.

missmoon Sat 30-Jul-16 23:11:56

there have been many reports of immigrants coming to this country claiming umpteen amounts of benefits and working cash in hand

Which reports? Can you link to one?

JassyRadlett Sat 30-Jul-16 23:18:57

The Australians and Americans control immigration why shouldn't we?

Have you checked the per capita immigration rates of Australia v Britain?

The system of immigration (free movement of citizens of some countries vs more universal system) isn't all that relevant to the OP's point. Economically, the country needs immigrants.

proudnewMNaddict Sat 30-Jul-16 23:27:55

FGS liberal political correctness has brought the country to its knees.
Like I said the Americans and the Australians control their immigration why shouldn't we? I am not against immigration at all - three of my mothers siblings emigrated down under. One of them was born there so had automatic citizenship. The other two had to prove they could support themselves for x amount of years, have a trade/skill to offer the country etc etc. Absolutely nothing wrong with that!

ReallyTired Sun 31-Jul-16 08:54:41

We need a compassionate immigration system. We also need to stop blaming immigrants for everything bad in the world. It is not the fault of immigrants that the uk that our employment laws allow companies to treat their employees like shit. We need to clamp down on the black market and poor employment practices.

Freedom of movement causes problems when movement is one way and totally uncontrolled. A freedom of movement agreement between two countries with similar standards of living and ecomonies can work well for both countries.

I hope the uk can have some freedom of movement with other eu countries.

Dutchcourage Sun 31-Jul-16 09:02:34

I've always wondered why we couldn't adopt an Australian points system any one here know why? Genuine question.

Poptart27 Sun 31-Jul-16 09:08:29

This

DinosaursRoar Sun 31-Jul-16 09:18:02

I didn't think our birth rate was very low anymore, it is across the EU, but ours is pretty high now. We need some immigration, but being more controlling and targeting would be good.

(Moving old people away from the south east would create more problems than it solves, currently a lot of low level caring is done by family members, from popping in, taking mum to the supermarket, DIY, just looking after an older relative for a week or two who's had a fall but would normally be fine to live independently. Removing the possibility of family care, removing informal support networks will massively increase costs and demands on care, policy should be encouraging older people to move near their adult dcs who've moved for work, not away from them!)

Grassgreendashhabi Sun 31-Jul-16 09:24:23

That's why we need it controlled

Not all immigrants are wanting to work the sun does not shine out of their bums

Some are scroungers

A controlled system e.g points, skills assessment then yes

But if you are talking about the stupid open door policy then NO

mollie123 Sun 31-Jul-16 09:30:45

proud - I do agree with much of your post
What I find disturbing on MN (and probably not reflective of RL) are the number of people who because of Brexit are looking to move somewhere else (they obviously think/hope that the UK will go to the dogs) like Canada or Australia which have very severe immigration rules based on what Canada/Oz NEEDS - but it is OK because they qualify being such skilled people.
That is so hypocritical and very much 'I'm all right Jack' attitude - so you want to go somewhere with a points based (choosy) immigration system because you don't like the idea that the UK might just possibly want the same thing. hmm

prettybird Sun 31-Jul-16 09:51:58

If you are indeed a PeoudnewMNaddict, then you will find that people will expect you to provide pack up to statements like T^here have been many reports of immigrants coming to this country claiming umpteen amounts of benefits and working cash in hand ^
^
...^and a Daily Mail article doesn't count. hmm

Try looking at websites like Fullfact.org to get a less prejudiced more balanced view. This is what it said about whether immigrants contributed to the economy (in case you're not prepared to be enlightened, it points out that recent immigrants, particularly since the Eastern Europeans were able to come, are even more likely to be positive contributors)

https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-contribute-134-every-1-they-receive/

JassyRadlett Sun 31-Jul-16 10:03:33

Like I said the Americans and the Australians control their immigration why shouldn't we

What level would you set it at?

JassyRadlett Sun 31-Jul-16 10:09:50

That is so hypocritical and very much 'I'm all right Jack' attitude - so you want to go somewhere with a points based (choosy) immigration system because you don't like the idea that the UK might just possibly want the same thing.

Is that why they're planning to emigrate though? In any discussion I've seen the reasons have been much more complex, and not related to a points based system at all - rather a pull up the drawbridge /anti-immigration full stop mentality, or very practically the chance that the economy will tank quite severely in the coming years. People I've spoken to feel shocked by the dislocation they feel with the majority who voted in the referendum, and therefore feel that rather than sticking it out through a recession they would be better off elsewhere, without the feeling of guilt they might have experienced otherwise.

I came to this country as a non-EU immigrant. Lots of hoops to jump through. Even as a white anglophone I've experienced some pretty unpleasant anti-immigrant we-don't-want-any-of-you-fuck-off-home sentiment since the referendum campaign. As a result, my (British) husband and children are much more likely to emigrate than previously.

lljkk Sun 31-Jul-16 10:44:09

A lot of Americans would say they DON'T control immigration. They have a huge illegals problem, and a big reason Trump is doing well is anti-immigrant feelings.

The birth rate in UK among UK-born women is still low.

NotDavidTennant Sun 31-Jul-16 10:54:37

I've never understood the argument that we have an ageing population so we need to import more young people. It's a pyramid scheme: when those people get old we'll have to import even more young people, and when they got old even more and so on.

What humanity needs is to find a way to economically sustain itself without an ever growing population.

JassyRadlett Sun 31-Jul-16 11:42:47

I've never understood the argument that we have an ageing population so we need to import more young people. It's a pyramid scheme: when those people get old we'll have to import even more young people, and when they got old even more and so on.

Except that immigrants (especially the shorter-term European ones) are more likely to spend their retirement elsewhere. The more hoops you've had to jump through and the more you've had to spend, the more likely you are to treat the move as permanent I'd think.

I'd agree with your general point if Britain weren't facing the singular economic challenge of the baby boom starting to retire at the same time as life expectancy increased significantly.

If current trends continue, from now until 2037, the numbers of those aged 15 to 64 in the UK will grow on average by 29,000 a year, while the numbers of people aged 65 and over will rise by 278,800 a year, according to the International Longevity Centre.

It's a particular economic circumstance for this generation that requires a specific economic response.

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