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Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.

(117 Posts)
titbumwillypoo Mon 08-Jun-20 19:57:35

I understand a lot of the anger out there right now, it's 2020 FGS and the colour of a persons skin shouldn't matter, what gender they are shouldn't matter, whether they believe in a God or not shouldn't matter. But obviously they still do and there are still massive inequalities in our society that shouldn't be prevelant in this day and age.
So when I see statues being pushed into rivers and people complaining about Do they know it's Christmas and calling it to be banned or JK Rowling being racist because she wasn't inclusive enough it bothers me that instead of trying to improve the present we are more concered about deleting the past.
How can we grow as a society if the past has been censored. Books, music and art are a snapshot of how things were at that time in history, so surely it's better to have these things to discuss and learn from than to try and write them out of our collective consciousness. Imagine the uproar if Poland decided to level Auschwitz and build something nice on it. It's there and will remain there to remind us and future generations of mans inhumanity to man.
Finally there was a 38 degree's petition set up 3 years ago about Edward Colstons statue being removed, it got 10 signatures. If people find something offensive then there are systems in place to change things if they can be bothered to engage.

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/remove-the-edward-colston-statue-from-bristol-city-centre?bucket&source=facebook-share-button&time=1591119305&utm_campaign&share=d20ed235-f13a-4959-a06a-fd99dd9d7e94&fbclid=IwAR20VPeTfcewycIMCIkFNPc_W2Sy9VVNbHncGA352K1KpEmppi-y7FUV7iA

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-45825768
YANBU: We can and should learn from history and censorship is bad.
YABU: Burn it all and start again.

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BankofNook Mon 08-Jun-20 20:13:31

Auschwitz is not dedicated to the perpetrators, Colston's statue was.

BankofNook Mon 08-Jun-20 20:14:12

I'm also certain that seeing as you're savvy enough to use the internet you are also capable of understanding the difference between a museum and a statue.

OwlBeThere Mon 08-Jun-20 20:15:21

Completely agree that we should recognise our past for what it was and learn from it, not pretend it didn’t happen.

Sargass0 Mon 08-Jun-20 20:16:02

Auschwitz is not dedicated to the perpetrators, Colston's statue was.
Missing the point

PinkyU Mon 08-Jun-20 20:16:49

Quickest resolution to a ridiculous post ever! 2nd post in and it’s answered.

Sargass0 Mon 08-Jun-20 20:20:59

The 2nd post isn't an answer to the question that was posed though.

june2007 Mon 08-Jun-20 20:21:50

I am not pressing either as I think we should look at each individual merit. I mean there are some really dodgy lirics around do they know its Christmas, but it was written in response to a tragic time for Ethiopians and did a lot to raise awareness but also perpetrated a stereotype. (remember Starvin Marvin.)

Keepithidden Mon 08-Jun-20 20:24:54

The removal of a statue won't erase them from history though. There'll still be in books, the internet and numerous other sources. It's simply removing a statue that qasy dedicated to an individual who with the benefit of modern thinking had some pretty odious interests.

It's the same as removing Jimmy Saville's plaques and the like. It won't erase their memory, just that there won't be anything overtly praising them as individuals.

malloo Mon 08-Jun-20 20:36:19

Can't believe that statue was still standing in Bristol so can understand why people took it down. But do agree OP, its important to get the balance right. Not just erase history in case it offends people, we need to learn from what has happened.

user1471565182 Mon 08-Jun-20 20:40:52

Can we just take Orwell away from people until they're able to actually read it please. Nearly as bad as Nietzsche blaggers.

titbumwillypoo Mon 08-Jun-20 20:40:56

But Keepithidden the council were proposing adding this www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-44951380 to give balance. My point is if you remove all the things that cause offense how will people know to to look them up and learn from them? It's a thin end of a wedge.

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user1471565182 Mon 08-Jun-20 20:43:14

Tell me Op, without any extras-why was that statue there in Bristol? Then tell me why Auschwitz-Birkenau was there.

titbumwillypoo Mon 08-Jun-20 20:48:49

The statue (and all the buildings and roads) was there because he gave a shit load of money to Bristol when he died (and nobody has really done anything about it since). Aushchwitz is still there as a reminder of evil.
Concise enought?

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Sargass0 Mon 08-Jun-20 20:48:51

Tell me Op, without any extras-why was that statue there in Bristol?

I'll be honest, I'd never heard of him (along with thousands of others) but now everyone knows about him and can see who he was and what he did.
Now the statue is gone- how will future generations learn?

Smileyaxolotl1 Mon 08-Jun-20 20:51:23

You are generally not being unreasonable and I don’t think the statue should have been thrown in the river because vandalism is illegal and are we going to say that tearing down a statue of Margaret Thatcher is ok as she is hated by many?
However, a statue in a museum is different to a statue outside. Statues are there to commemorate good and influential people and while Colston was a philanthropist his money was made from slavery so it should have been moved to a more educational setting years ago.
I do think changing things and rewriting history is a concern though.
For example Guy Gibson of Dambusters fame had a dog called ‘n******’ which has been renamed in later versions of his story. That isn’t acceptable and, though the purpose is different, is in the spirit of 1984. Surely they could just not mention the dog....

PicsInRed Mon 08-Jun-20 20:54:08

It isn't burned. It will be put in a museum, where it will be very appropriately viewed in context of the horrors of slavery.

Do you really expect black people to walk past that every day, so you have a piece of history in town rather than in a museum? Do you really think that's reasonable?

PicsInRed Mon 08-Jun-20 20:56:24

*Aushchwitz is still there as a reminder of evil.
Concise enought?*

Auschwitz is a literal museum of horror. That statue stood in celebration, still.

Would you object to it standing in a museum of the horrors of slavery? Fully in context, as Auschwitz is?

Judethe0bscure Mon 08-Jun-20 20:59:43

Do you really expect black people to walk past that every day, so you have a piece of history in town rather than in a museum?

Not a bad idea but people would have to seek it out in order to learn the horrors. Those that don't normally seek to educate themselves will remain in blissful ignorance.

Swallowsareback Mon 08-Jun-20 21:00:09

Maybe we should build the Berlin Wall back up?

PicsInRed Mon 08-Jun-20 21:03:35

Judethe0bscure

*Do you really expect black people to walk past that every day, so you have a piece of history in town rather than in a museum?*

Not a bad idea but people would have to seek it out in order to learn the horrors. Those that don't normally seek to educate themselves will remain in blissful ignorance.

Oh as if most white people thought anything of that statue. It wasn't standing in education, it was just standing.

Black people knew the history imbued in that statue and it hurt. The authorities had a chance to relocate it to a museum in an orderly manner and they failed.

Now they have the cost and inconvenience of fishing it from the harbour, somewhat disheveled.

ChangeThePassword Mon 08-Jun-20 21:04:22

*I'll be honest, I'd never heard of him (along with thousands of others) but now everyone knows about him and can see who he was and what he did.
Now the statue is gone- how will future generations learn?*

Well you clearly didn't learn about him while the statue was up, so I can't see it making much of a difference to the education of future generations whether it's there or not.

CherryPavlova Mon 08-Jun-20 21:07:13

The statue was erected in 1865, over a hundred years after the man died.
He did give money he’d made through the murder of over 20, 000 people to various institutions but mainly for his own political gain. He was no philanthropist. He was a mass murderer. The statue celebrating him has no place in civilised society.

Auschwitz is not a museum or statue to celebrate Hitler and the Third Reich; it is a mass grave and memorial to the murdered millions.

Should we put a statue of Jimmy Saville in Trafalgar Square? After all he did raise ‘shit loads of money’ and volunteered for years with the young and vulnerable. How much money makes abusers acceptable?

How much money and how many buildings named after you makes slavery acceptable?

Your post is I’ll informed and verges on incitement to hatred. It makes concerning reading.

Judethe0bscure Mon 08-Jun-20 21:07:23

Maybe we should build the Berlin Wall back up?

There is a memorial along part of the original wall. So there is a reminder of what once was, which is the point. It has not been removed from history.

titbumwillypoo Mon 08-Jun-20 21:10:27

Pics, burn it all refered to history not the statue. Also I made the point that people didn't seem that bothered in Bristol 3 years ago when it was brought up because it would have got more people signing the pedition and more people writing to their local council if it was that big a bone of contention. By the logic some people have put forward we should get rid of all statues of Nelson Mandela because of his association with uMkhonto we Sizwe. Of course that would be ridiculous because of the good those actions had in the long term. History is often ugly, but if we hide it we can't learn from it.

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