Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.

[titbumwillypoo]

I understand a lot of the anger out there right now, it's 2020 FGS and the colour of a persons skin shouldn't matter, what gender they are shouldn't matter, whether they believe in a God or not shouldn't matter. But obviously they still do and there are still massive inequalities in our society that shouldn't be prevelant in this day and age.
So when I see statues being pushed into rivers and people complaining about Do they know it's Christmas and calling it to be banned or JK Rowling being racist because she wasn't inclusive enough it bothers me that instead of trying to improve the present we are more concered about deleting the past.
How can we grow as a society if the past has been censored. Books, music and art are a snapshot of how things were at that time in history, so surely it's better to have these things to discuss and learn from than to try and write them out of our collective consciousness. Imagine the uproar if Poland decided to level Auschwitz and build something nice on it. It's there and will remain there to remind us and future generations of mans inhumanity to man.
Finally there was a 38 degree's petition set up 3 years ago about Edward Colstons statue being removed, it got 10 signatures. If people find something offensive then there are systems in place to change things if they can be bothered to engage.

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/remove-the-edward-colston-statue-from-bristol-city-centre?bucket&source=facebook-share-button&time=1591119305&utm_campaign&share=d20ed235-f13a-4959-a06a-fd99dd9d7e94&fbclid=IwAR20VPeTfcewycIMCIkFNPc_W2Sy9VVNbHncGA352K1KpEmppi-y7FUV7iA

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-45825768
YANBU: We can and should learn from history and censorship is bad.
YABU: Burn it all and start again.

[janeskettle]

I don't agree with slavery, or celebration of a slaver, and I am a leftist, not a right winger. So I'm not sure what your point is?

I've already said that I'd like to see the materials melted down and re-used by a black artist to tell - presumably - black history, which includes the history of a town lauding a slaver via statuary.

[CandyLeBonBon]

But the removal of that statue has now become an act that in itself will be remembered in history. It's not erasing anything. It's creating an historic event that will be talked about in local and national history. The times we are living in will be taught and discussed in schools in the future, much like the poll tax riots and 3 day weeks of the 70s are now.

[TeaAndStrumpets]

But in future history lessons will it be taught as a laudable act or seen as an example of vandalism? We just don't know. Certainly most of the people in that mob have had the privilege of living in a democratic society, and have had ample opportunity to campaign on the matter.

[ChocolatelyAsFuck]

Some posters on the previous “Won’t someone think of the racist statues!” thread very actively tried to downplay slavery and told huge untruths about Colston (whether through intentional deceit or sheer ignorance, I don’t know) in order to defend him.

The man was head of and ran the slaving company who held the British monopoly on the West African slave trade, 84000 slaves were trafficked during his time there, 19000 died, his company was known to throw slaves over board to die in order to collect the insurance money, and there are Mumsnetters in 2020 insisting he never did anything wrong.

[LlamaHammock]

The statue was more erasive of history than tearing it down could ever be.

I agree it should go into a museum though, as one example of the whitewashing and romanticizing of some of the more heinous atrocities of our history.

Unfortunately, I think there are still a lot of Brits who are not ready to be confronted with historic facts and would rather cling on to fairytales.

[LlamaHammock]

Just to underscore my post above, on the other thread there was a poster talking about how in school they learned about how one of Colton's ships was saved from sinking when a friendly dolphin plugged a leak with its snout.

That ship-repairing dolphin was even referenced on the statue.

[BlackForestCake]

Should the Royal family be stripped of their land and titles because of their history?

Yes. Next question?

[zscaler]

Why do people need a statue glorifying a slave owner to learn about slavery?

If Auschwitz was a monument to the greatness of the Nazis then I would support levelling it too, but it isn’t. I’m surprised you think it’s comparable to Colson’s statue.

Slavery isn’t some discrete event that happened in the past as is now concluded. The ramifications of it still affect the world today. Black people are still dealing with the repercussions. So a narrative of history which glorifies slave owners doesn’t help people learn about it - it’s just propaganda.

A petition has been set up at change.org for a statue of civil rights campaigner Dr Paul Stephenson to be erected as a replacement.

Dr Stephenson led the Bristol bus boycott in the 1960s, which resulted in a ban on ethnic minorities working on city buses being overturned.

Surely that’s a better way to teach history than glorifying a slave trader?

As for your ‘democratic processes’ point, you refer to one change.org petition as if that’s the only attempt that has been made, but people have been campaigning for removal of that statue for decades without success. There are people in Bristol planning to boycott the music hall if it’s changes its name from ‘Colson Hall’ - many people are actively angry at the prospect of no longer honouring a slaver.

This is a good article I suggest you read:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/08/edward-colston-statue-history-slave-trader-bristol-protest

[zscaler]

Censorship and rewriting the past will just lead to ignorance not education.

How can you possibly claim that removing the statue is censorship and rewriting the past, but not recognise that a statue commemorating a man’s great, philanthropic works without even mentioning the fact that he oversaw the enslavement of 84,000 people and the deaths of 19,000 of them is exactly that - censorship and rewriting history?!

[Swallowsareback]

Do you feel the same about the Jimmy Saville plaques and memorials and statues that were defaced and ripped down across the country? Or do we think that’s a nice piece of history that needs to remain because he actually did some philanthropic stuff too? If we are ‘rewriting history’ according to some folk by that definition they should never have been removed either or is it okay because mainly white people defaced them?

[titbumwillypoo]

I think people are getting away from the point of the post which was about censorship. Most people are not bothered about things that happened hundreds of years and will not go searching for them so surely it is better to have things in view so they can be used as examples of injustice.

[Swallowsareback]

@titbumwillypoo ridiculous. ‘Most people are not bothered’ ...I think this has demonstrated that some people are clearly very bothered and it’s an insult to have a statue memorialising someone for his good deeds when it is clearly representing a completely different version of the truth.

[user1471565182]

Ohhhh so we're teaching history through erecting statues now? I assume the tabloids will react positively if its announced a statue of Harold Shipman is to be built in that case.

[user1471565182]

Statues are built as celebrations of that life. We know it and you know it, so stop playing silly buggers and ask yourself why you need to poke around the edges and desperately try to discredit protests against racism.

[silentpool]

Yes the statue should be in a museum. No, it should not have been pulled down by protesters, whatever their motivation. There are ways to do things correctly and having lived in places with mob rule tendencies, I would strongly suggest you don't glorify that here - For any reason.

[BashStreetKid]

Go to the large towns of former communist countries and you will see that plenty of communist statues and monuments have been removed. Should they really have been left cluttering the place up indefinitely?

[titbumwillypoo]

So you agree that all statues and celebrations of Nelson Mandela should be removed because of his terrorist past?

[user1471565182]

Then the government should have done their bit properly, but instead, because Colston was a tory they've done all they can to keep it up and similtaneously hide the bits about his past that embarassed them.

And what are these 'correct channels'? those votes we have every 4 years on what statues we should remove? I swear some of you would sit in a burning down house until there was a vote on what to do. The reason this country is falling on its arse is because of money and corruption in democracy, stop worshipping it.

[Helmetbymidnight]

the statues are horrendous and shouldnt have been there and should have been takendown long ago.

im still uncomfortable with mob rule which would have jkrowling burnt as a witch this weekend.

[Swallowsareback]

@silentpool Desperate times for desperate measures. I should imagine you are a bit cross with the suffragettes because they didn’t campaign in the ‘proper manner’?

[Swallowsareback]

@titbumwillypoo if you are equating Nelson Mandela with Edward Colston then you clearly need some help with your history.

[AuntieStella]

So you agree that all statues and celebrations of Nelson Mandela should be removed because of his terrorist past?

Younare nit comparing like with like.

People in Bristol had been actively campaigning for this statue to be removed from that location for over 30 years.

Once there are concerted and durable efforts campaigning to have Mandela removed from public spaces, then yes that wouid need to be done. But I see no sign whatsoever of that happening, so spdisagree with this piece of reductio ad absurdam

We managed to get Jimmy Savile out of public spaces pdq. It's utterly shameful that objections to a public commemoration of a slaver had to wait decades for action.

[AtrociousCircumstance]

So. To get this clear: you believe the statue honouring the slave trader should have stayed there?

History HAS been whitewashed and airbrushed - by the people with the power. So you liked that version of history. That reflects on you.

[slartibarti]

Bristol's mayor, Marvin Rees, says he found the statue offensive.
He's been mayor for 4 years, why didn't he do something about it?

[user1471565182]

Possibly because mayors have fuck all power? (unless in certain cities)