To wonder how you can define 'theft?'

[user1491678180]

After seeing a thread on here that I read with interest (and confusion) I am wondering if someone who knows more about the law, can confirm what 'theft' actually is?

The thread was on about whether someone's cat can be stolen. The answer from most people was 'of course it can.' Because it's a possession that belongs to someone, and is registered to them; and many searches on the internet showed this to be true, including one someone posted on page 8 of that thread

@Iris65

www.pets4homes.co.uk/pet-advice/your-pets-and-the-law.html

That makes it quite clear you can indeed steal someone's cat, and it is 'theft.'

Yet someone else said if they just feed the cat, and pet it, and it 'chooses them,' then they are not stealing it.

They also posted something from the 'Theft' act.

sixthformlaw.info/01_modules/mod3a/3_60_propety_offences/01_theft.htm

Which basically states that taking something is not theft if you did not intend to keep the item permanently, and intended to give the item back.

So surely if that is the case, we can all take stuff, from friends, and neighbours, and colleagues, and our employers, and shops and stores, and say that we didn't intend to keep it, so it's not stealing. And if they can't prove otherwise, we won't get charged with theft surely? Hey Mr Jones, yeah I took your lawnmower 3 weeks ago, but it's only in my garage and I was going to bring it back.' 'Hey Mr policeman, I took the dress from H & M, but I only wanted it for a few days, so I have something to wear for the party. I was going to bring it back!'

How can anyone prove I intended to keep the item permanently?

And if they can't, then surely it's not theft? That is what that link to the theft act is inferring.

Enlighten me someone. I am confused by all these grey areas!

[IDoLikeARainbow]

Theft is the ‘intention to permanently deprive’.
Joyriding for example does not come with a ‘theft’ conviction but rather a ‘TWOC’ or taking without owner’s consent.

[user1491678180]

Thanks, but how can anyone prove they were not going to keep something?

And how can the person you have taken the item from, prove you intended to keep it if you say 'I was going to give it back!'

As I said, by this token, we could all take stuff and just say 'hey it's OK, I was going to give it back!' No more theft convictions for anyone else ever.!

TWOC is a criminal offence still, and is only applicable in Scotland.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWOC

I am pretty sure taking someone's car (or cat!) is stealing and will give you a criminal record for stealing.

[LurkingHusband]

Theft is the ‘intention to permanently deprive’.

There has to be an element of dishonesty, surely ?

[Walnutwhiplash]

All elements of theft are defined in the Theft Act

[user1491678180]

Thanks for the responses.

There are a lot of grey areas aren't there?

[babsthebuilder]

Feeding a visiting cat that chooses to visit you is completely different to taking someone’s car without their consent but with the intention of taking itself home after you’ve given it a saucer of petrol.

I agree there is a grey area, but “surely we can just take stuff” isn’t really the same thing.

[DJBaggySmalls]

You can prove you dont intend to keep the item by handing it over to a solicitor (eg in the case of some files), handing it to the police or RSPCA, or returning it to the owner.

You cant walk out of a shop claiming you only intend to borrow the item because shops dont lend things.

[Nishky]

What makes you say that TWOC is only applicable in Scotland?

[user1491678180]

Not really! Don't dishonestly take things that aren't yours and you'll be fine

GOT IT!

If you just put out treats and was nice to the cat so that it wanted to stay with you, (and it did) then let it come and go as it pleased, that is not theft.

Ahhh I see. If I do the same with someone's dog, or child, I assume that's OK too? I will tempt my neighbour's 2 lovely children with my freshly baked cookies, and put an X box and playstation in my spare bedroom (and a laptop, and a tv with sky, and also netflix.) The children shall love me so much, and realise their are parents shit, and I treat them better, and they will come live with me.

There won't be any problem with that of course, because they chose me? Right?

Yeah I think I'm getting it now.

[user1491678180]

What makes you say that TWOC is only applicable in Scotland?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWOC

[sizenines]

Taking without permission is not borrowing since the owner of the property does not know whether the item is gone permanently or temporarily, or even who has it, and it is therefore not lent.

[PhilODox]

Cats are sentient beings, and cannot belong to anyone other than themselves.
So, you cannot steal a cat. However, one could kidnap, and hold a cat against its will (as every "owner" that has locked a cat in overnight will attest- they protest!)

[user1491678180]

No I don't want to be accused of grooming or kidnapping anyone's cat or dog, so should I not tempt them to my house with treats then?

[user1491678180]

Yes you can steal a cat. Look at the link in my first post!

[Urubu]

TAAT...

[Evelynismyspyname]

Has someone stolen your cat user ?

Some would say a cat is more akin to an adult (tempt your neighbor's husband over with the X box and cookies and he stays of his own free will, don't tell his wife where he is - you've broken a moral but not a legal code, he is responsible for himself, you haven't kidnapped him. Tempt your neighbor's 6 year old children with unlimited screens and sweets etc and let them stay, don't tell their parents where they are, but don't lock the door, they are free to go... It's totally different to the situation with a competent adult and you will certainly have broken laws.)

Dogs are more like kids and cats more like adults. I believe the law around cats and dogs is different, as it is around adults and children.