To think this silly patronising man needs to take long hard look at himself...

[MrsBuntyCuldeSacFunnyLady]

and his policies before telling the rest of the country what to do:
www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/05/david-cameron-households-debts-speech
Of course households need to pay off their debts, nobody wants to be saddled with debts. It shows weak leadership IMO to now try and turn the blame of economic problems onto ordinary households, because months of blaming Labour is wearing a bit thin.

[HecateGoddessOfTheNight]

This is the reality of politics.

It's how they work. It's how they've always worked and it's how they always will work.

It's a script with them.

If you go back over, well, forever you'll see that they were saying the same things. The other party did this. The mess we are in is their fault. Then they start on the public. Then another dig at the other guys.

In fact, I'm fairly sure they use the same words!

I accept that the government of this country is something that happens in apart from and in spite of politics and politicians.

[WhaohThere]

And you don't think a lot of the public ARE to partly blame for this mess? Lots of the public have borrowed well beyond their means - look at house prices for example.

Lots of the public have been buying tat on their credit cards - it's a national pastime for some.

The others of us have lived within our means and yet we are being stuffed by low interest rates etc in order to prop up the greedy masses. When interest rates rise there will be mayhem. Although tbh I think mayhem will be upon us anyway, very soon, with the Europezone issue.

[ssd]

agree totally

liked the ch4 news last night, the interviewer asked DC if he'd ever lived without plenty money, DC waffled on about how lucky he was to be in a well paid job, the interviewer just looked at him, like you know what I mean , mate................

I fing DC, that chancellor and the rest of the tories smug, self satiafied millionaires who havent ever lived on £200 a week with a family and all the bills to pay

[TeddyBare]

I think it's almost impossible to live without debts isn't it? Until the price of houses reduces massively everyone is always going to have a mortgage for most of their working lives. Add to that student debts. Is it any wonder that people now are less debt-adverse than previous generations?
I find it quite amusing that he is encouraging people to pay off their debts while his policies are putting a lot of people into a position where they cannot afford to live without even more debt.

[MrsBuntyCuldeSacFunnyLady]

I think you're right, Hecate, it is depressing none the less. What I think particularly irritates me with regard to DC is that he adopts an incredibly patronising tone - not just the language and content but delivery of his speeches to the public. Rather in the manner of a school prefect trying to cajole with juniors into 'good behaviour'. I think he is astoundingly out of touch.

[ssd]

I don't think he can ever be in touch, he hasnt lived a life remotely like most of the rest of the country

I know there are plenty of labour politicians who have a comfortable lifestyle, but I feel a bit more hopeful most of them weren't born wealthy and had to work to get where they are and so might have a bit of a clue how the rest of us live

[Alibabaandthe80nappies]

The personal debt problem is partly to blame though. Yes times are tough now and people are getting into debt despite budgeting and being very careful, but millions spent too much on easy credit and now can't pay it back.

In lots of cases the banks shouldn't have lent it, but we are all responsible for our own actions.

[HecateGoddessOfTheNight]

I think far more damage has been done to this country by bailing out big companies and by wasting huge amounts of public money on various things and on propping up huge and wasteful public services than has been done by people buying stuff on the never-never.

Although yes, it is foolish to buy things you cannot afford and we need to change how we see things. I want it-I'll get it-I'll work out how to pay for it is not a good idea. It comes from this idea that we all have a right to the things that we want, whether or not we can afford them. It's harsh but it's true. If you don't have the money, then you may just have to accept that you can't have that thing you wanted and that you feel you have a right to have because other people have one.

The idea of saving up until you have the actual money to pay for something never occurs to many people and if you suggest it, they are outraged by the idea that they may have to wait until they can afford something before having it. Apparently that means they may not be able to have it. I find that odd. My children need new beds and we need a new sofa and the dining chairs are breaking. it'll have to wait.

But. Like I say. It's a drop in the ocean compared to what the government wastes in various ways.

[MrsBuntyCuldeSacFunnyLady]

I agree that not all personal debt is necessary and of course individuals need to lessen their debts. They have a legal obligation to do so anyway so most people are repaying and do repay. The banks have the greater culpability though for previously having slacker lending criteria. In this respect what he is saying is quite futile and can only make people already struggling financially - whether it be to live day to day or make their next debt repayment feel even worse about their situation.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

YABU. It's totally valid for a PM to set out the direction of travel. I think most people are paying down debt at the moment if they can but that doesn't mean he can't urge financial prudence as part of the bigger picture. There's been a major swing in culture of 'buy now pay never' in the last 10 - 15 years and it's come to an end. The fact that the PM's never lived on the breadline is totally irrelevant to anything. If only the poverty-stricken could apply to be MPs, that would be ridiculous.

[entropygirl]

Do houses count? I cant get excited about credit card bills in the face of my MORTGAGE. Lets all save up for a house before we buy one.......

[ApocalypseCheeseToastie]

Well I havent got any debt aside from £160 a month mortgage payment and i'm still bloody skint so........

[SauvignonBlanche]

He's a wanker.
Does he think I want to be in debt?

[sunshineandbooks]

Love the idea that debts are only acquired because we want things we consider a right because everything else has them. I'm just about financially stable but for years I was building up credit cards to pay for fuel to get to work and to EAT ? not on CDs, clothes or holidays or other luxury items. That's the reality for a lot of people in debt. The idea that people are only funding lavish lifestyles on credit is just not true.

[ssd]

Cogito, you wrote earlier

" The fact that the PM's never lived on the breadline is totally irrelevant to anything",



the PM's never lived without millions in the bank, never mind the bloody breadline!!

[MrsBuntyCuldeSacFunnyLady]

I hadn't actually put this into the context of his own lifestyle and wealth. For many people having wealth, whether it is be acquired at birth or earned does not mean they automatically have a lack empathy, or are a sociopath. But this is clearly the case with DC and his cronies, by default.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

If he's always had millions in the bank, that's also irrelevant. The least empathetic people, I find, are the ones that started with nothing and pulled themselves up by their boot-straps. They tend to think 'I did it without any help, so should everyone else'. Those with a lot of money, by contrast, often feel a sense of obligation. I do not read David Cameron as either lacking in empathy or being a sociopath.

[ssd]

I know you didnt mean that op

am just bitter and twisted, hate seeing DC and chancellor up there waffling that we're all in it together, makes me hurl

[HecateGoddessOfTheNight]

I didn't say that they were only acquired that way, sunshine. But it is a fact that they are acquired that way, and it is those types that really urgently need to change. Need a change in attitude.

For your information, I had a business. That business went bust. On the run up to it and in an attempt to save it and save the jobs of the people who worked for me, I tried everything. Loans, including loans against my house.

I was eventually declared bankrupt by the IR with business debts of close to £200,000

I lost everything, including the roof over my head.

And I still say that those people who take on debts because of an attitude of entitlement are a problem.

[MrsBuntyCuldeSacFunnyLady]

I agree that those who take on debts through a sense of entitlement are a problem. DC is however making a very generalised speech, with dubious motives, once again reinforcing his same tired message of that we all shoulder 'this responsibility' together. He basically is failing and cannot come out with any decent policies to alleviate the economic problem, so we are to blame. I have (manageable) household debt acquired through moving costs/ having had to relocate twice for work purposes after two separate period redundancy. I don't need a PM telling me to repay my credit card debt. I and many, many others are intelligent enough to work out we need to do that anyway.

[HecateGoddessOfTheNight]

yes, but you are expecting sense, logic and fairness

from a politician



It's all guff from him anyway. If lessons were ever learned - then the government would have changed so many things about itself over the years.

They really have to sort themselves out first. But they don't want anything about them to change. About the way they work. about the money they spend. (waste!)

That's what annoys me about it all. They bitch at each other and at us while spending a million quid on a happiness survey because they want a survey to shove at us to tell us that we don't need money to be happy.

I'd be happy if they hadn't spent that million quid on a survey.

[sunshineandbooks]

Hecate - sorry, didn't intend that to come across as though I have a chip on my shoulder but it does make me cross when people (generally, not you particularly) come out with arguments about debt being the fault of the debtor. It's just too close to the Victorian notion of deserving and undeserving poor.

You're right of course. It is partly the people who have funded luxuries on credit who are responsible for the genuine poor having to fund essentials on credit because the whole credit cycle pushes up the cost of everything.

To some extent DC is right. We do have to end our reliance on credit in this country. We need to get back to a point where it is possible for people on a normal income to lead a reasonable life without needing credit. The cost of living, particularly house prices, need to come down. The trouble is, unless we have a debt moratorium and strong legislation to force reduction of house prices, etc (which, let's face it, is never going to happen in a free-market economy), the overwhelming majority of people suffering from this will be the poor whose only crime is to not earn enough to survive adequately. The very people who created the debt crisis (not just bankers and the wealthy, but the MC who financed cars, holidays, large houses etc on credit) will get off largely ok.

It's always those at the bottom of the heap who suffer.

[sunshineandbooks]

And those who are just above the bottom of the heap - earning too much to be considered poor so not qualifying for help, but too little to be able to cope well without that help.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Wouldn't it be a better idea to hear the actual speech first, rather than take the angle from the well-known tory-hugging newpaper, the Guardian, 100% on face value?

[MrsBuntyCuldeSacFunnyLady]

It's well published, Cogito. I can link to BBC or DM if you prefer which basically say the same thing. I just used the Guardian link because I'm an unashamed 'Wet Guardian Reader' so this was my link of choice! I will be interested to see how actual speech pans out though and happily discuss after.