Am I forced out???

[Jenny79]

Hi all,
a month ago I applied for part time return to work from March onwards. My boss returned the app to me asking that I also include the flexi hours which I will need after an initial two month period.

So my proposal is part time (3d/week 9-4pm) and then after 2 months I'll go back to 5d/week but still 9-4 so I can pick up my baby from nursery. I work at Canary Wharf (business moved there after I left for mat leave!) and my home is in Fulham. Leaving at 4pm will ensure I'm at the nursery (opposite my place) by 5.30pm.

My contracted hours are 9-5, so my proposal mentioned that I will do the extra hour remotely from home, when needed. And that's because picking up the baby will be a shared responsibility with husband, although he may not be able to do this at all (keep in mind for later..)

I need to pay the nursery to secure my baby's place and only now did my boss come back to say that she (31, no children, not married) has to think about the Business and the rest of the team and although she is ok for the part time, she cannot provide a decision on the flex hours until she understands how I propose to manage my team, projects etc. AS IF I will be waiting until 4pm to manage my team or projects...!! Am I being unreasonable or is she just difficult? So if I were a single mom and did not have anyone to pick up the baby wouldn't she be forcing me out of work by not approving flexi hours?

My husband works abroad most of the days so I can tell he will not be able to pick up the baby for me. And I'll be paying extra in order to leave the baby at 8am and pick him up after 5. All in all I am sacrificing my hours with my son, and a fortune on nursery fees in order to keep my job and they can't let me go home an hour early? What is wrong with people?

The baby sleeps at 7pm so I'll be able to log in and answer emails for an hour then. I'm not a slacker and while pregnant at 8 months I worked 9-7 or longer for a project we had, when everyone had gone home. The project went live a week after I left fog mat leave and guess what, I never got credit for it (boss did).

I am really stressed and pretty depressed. Cried my eyes out yesterday.. I worked really hard to get to where I am, how can my boss not understand my needs?

[Emmaroos]

This is a bit late for the original discussion, but just in case this thread is found by anyone searching for solutions to similar problems and without extended families to call on in an emergency.

We use a great nursery in Fulham and a number of the girls there do extra hours privately for parents after the nursery closes. The going rate seems to be about £10 an hour to bring a child home and take care of him/her until one of the parents get back. I know one of the girls even stays overnight for one family occasionally if both parents are going to be very late getting home.

If your boss knew that you were in a position to work extra overtime some days they might be happier to let you leave early to do the pick-up on other days. It isn't only about getting the work done, it's also about being seen to put in the hours and setting an example, especially to younger team members that the extra overtime hours are all part of the job.

It's worth making the effort to get to know the nursery staff well, partly because these are the people you trust with your child each day so you should have a good rapport with them, but it is also incredibly useful to have people you can make arrangements with who are trained, experienced and already know your child. As working in a nursery isn't very well-paid work they are often glad of the extra cash. Our nursery staff were beyond amazing when I was rushed to hospital in an emergency and they flatly refused to charge us anything for looking after our son for longer than usual over the few days I was kept in.

[VerityClinch]

Yes, do that - add me as your emergency contact for the nursery. Is only sensible to have someone local as your emergency contact, isn't it?

Have pretty much decided (ie J has finally agreed) that whatever happens now I am not going back to work. Is a HUGE weight off my mind.

I am going to be a stay-at-home mummy!

When I open my very exclusive Fulham posh kids nursery, you can have "mates rates"

[Jenny79]

Well I looked at the childcare.co.uk website, first time I visited the site and made some contact with childminders in my area. Thanks Ladybee for this!

Verity good to know I can add u as my emergency contact if I ever have to walk all the way from CW - it'll take me a couple of days but don't worry, George will sleep easily in your travelcot and NO, none of my work clothes fit, so this week I'm shopping for new. Not even going to try trousers; it's skirt suits or dresses.

[cece]

I think you should look into getting a childminder rather than use a Nursery.

They can be more felxible with regards to times, they are often cheaper and you will also find they are often much more relaxed about illness. Most of the people I know have to have days off of work if their child has a cold! The nursery won't have them if they are remotely ill. My childminder had mine even when they had chicken pox!

[VerityClinch]

Jenny, just so you know, in an absolute DIRE emergency (of the suspected-terrorist-attack-all-tubes-suspended-can't-get-a-cab variety, not the I-fancy-a-glass-of-wine-in-the-sun-after-work variety) I can always pick G up from nursery for you and keep him at my place until you make it back.

8th March, eh? Yikes, that's not long. Have you tried on all your old suits to see if they fit (mine wouldn't!)?

[Jenny79]

How far do you commute from lobsters? do you commute with a baby? And do you use any of the nurseries in Canary Wharf?

[lobsters]

I work in CW too, can you not work 8-4 and put your child in one of the nurseries in CW? I usually work 8-4 and the tube is a lot more managable at those times and there is room for buggies, I see a few of them.

[Jenny79]

Well we agreed on the' part-time' part of my app, so I am starting on the 8th march. But my boss needs more time to think about the flexi time proposal, and she's off this week on vacation. I'm sure she'll put great thought to it while working on her tan...

[LadyBee]

well...we only have the right to ask for flexible working, not the right to have flexible working, so I guess no, you're not being forced out. You're just being forced to re-evaluate your options.

Are you absolutely sure you can't find a childminder in your area? Do none of these have vacancies? Childminders are often more willing to take longer hours or can be more flexible about you being late if this is talked about from the beginning.

It's not great though, if the company aren't able to come up with a flexible arrangement that works for an obviously experienced and therefore valuable worker. It would be shortsighted of them to insist of something that didn't suit you, as it will only lead to your discontent and most likely your quicker departure when the market turns around.

When do you think you'll hear one way or the other?

[Jenny79]

Ladies, seriously, the job Market is really dead right now, can't find anything (and can only imagine getting an offer and then having to convince them that I may need flexibility from time to time).So new job is a no no right now .
Ribenaberry - thought of getting the boat from Chelsea Harbour as it's a bit further than my stop but it actually takes longer than the tube to get to Canary (1.30' as opposed to 1' -according to tfl). DH took it ince to get to Blackfriars and got seasick hahaha!!

I think that based on past projects senior management have not learnt any lessons- fact is we are understaffed, which is why my team and I get to work really long hours on weeks end. Joined this division in June 08 and it's been hectic every month. If we weren't understaffed I could delegate more of my daily tasks and focus on projects too. But there's no hiring at the mo.

But let's go back to the main question. If they say Noto flexible time, and I cannot afford babysitter or any other type of childcare for 8-7pm then am I, or am I not forced out of my job? Given that during my call with them they didn't propose any alternative. With the current economic climate, it plain criminal.

[RibenaBerry]

Jenny - re public transport, have you thought of a sling or even the river boat (not sure where you could pick it up. Westminster?). Just a thought...

If you stayed late before, but didn't need to to stay on top of things, can you make all the right noises now about flexiblity and then prove that, actually, you can do the job without them needing to call on it?

[StarExpat]

I used to live in Earl's Court (before having ds). Not really relevant to the thread, just that you said you live there

[rookiemater]

Is it possible for you to find a job nearer to home ?

Effectively the reason you need flexible working is because of the length of your commute, so unlike many of us with DC you would still be attractive to a new employer if one exists closer to home as you would be able to work f/t

I do know what it's like during the negotiation process, I took it all so personally and couldn't understand a) how the manager who had given me beautifully personal baby gifts could be so dispassionate about forcing me into a working arrangement that I didn't want and b) how I could bear to work for her afterwards.

But you know what we managed it and we moved on and it sort of works out ( but I don't have a long commute each way)

Regarding your contract, most people in middle management and above have something that states they will be required to work additional hours from time to time as the business requires it. You probably know what projects you will be on and what that looks like in reality, but I don't think you can turn round and say that you aren't doing it unless your projects more than anyone elses are specifically weekend or out of hours based.

[Jenny79]

RibenaBerry (why don't I have a cool nickname...) have to check my contract as I'm sure there's something about overtime; been away from home over a month now so I have to dig it out this weekend.

The only reason I worked overtime with no issues for a ling time is because DH worked abroad and I didn't want to go back to an empty house, found it boring so made a habit to stay late in the office. How things change.

Wondering if Mumsnet are hiring? Lol.

[Jenny79]

Hi STar,
not an option to take baby and buggy with me on train during rush hour from Earls Court to Canary Wharf. It's plain madness ;)

[StarExpat]

Jenny - you've probably thought of this already, but is there a nursery or cm closer to where you work? I found that having ds at a cm very very close to where I work means that I drop him off just before I go in and collect him immediately when I'm finished with work. Sometimes he even comes to visit me (I'm a teacher, though - very different to your circumstances). It just shortens the time that they are at nursery/cm and it means you can pop in and see them on a lunch break, even, sometimes

[RibenaBerry]

Jen - I was responding to this:

"Change of contract to 9-4 is my last resort as it will mean pay cut and I see no fairness in getting a paycut and then be expected to work over and above these new contracted hours!"

What I was saying is that, if others work 9-5 officially, but actually 8:30 to 6, moving to 9-4 doesn't give you the right to say you won't work anything more than that. You're then only losing an hour's pay, but cutting your working time by a lot more.

[Jenny79]

Ribena - Flexi time means working same amount of contracted hours not working less contracted hours, so why would I accept a paycut ? That wouldn't be very 'equal pay for equal work' now, would it?

Ladybee - I told them 'these are the solutions to any issue I could think off, if you still have doubts , I am ready to hear what alternative you propose that could suit both our needs'. They didn't have anything alternative to propose.

[RibenaBerry]

Working Time Regulations opt out only cover the maximum working week of 48 hours. Lunch breaks don't count in that, and it's averaged over 17 weeks, so you actually have to be going some to exceed it anyway. Not many people sustain that level of intensity for 17 weeks.

The other rules specify one rest day a week and certain rules about overnight breaks. They cannot penalise you for asserting these rights (have a read on direct gov).

BUT

It won't do your career prospects any good if you start quoting this stuff at them instead of negotiating (sorry. It's tough I know).

In terms of being available, well if it's absolutely necessary for the project and others have to do it, you probably don't have a choice. It's shit, I know, but having children or a flexible working arrangment doesn't allow you to refuse all the weekend/late night stuff others do (unless you have a maximum hours agreement, which only really works places like NHS shifts).

[Jenny79]

Yup, put down everything I could think about my daily tasks in the app. Anything from US calls to managing my team. With solutions. The hr lady was impressed by it.
So had the call with them today, supervisor and my new HR lady. HR was lovely. She asked me to explain in my own words the app and the reason I submitted it.
I explained the reason I wanted to do part time for a couple of months (to settle back to work while baby settles to nursery). Manager had no issues with this.

The went on to explain the reason I made the request for flexible hours. And that was to accomodate my baby's childcare ongoing. I added that my proposal reflects the 'worst case scenario' i.e my husband never being able to pick up baby. Then explained that realistically he will share the task with me and on these days I'll be doing all hours (or extra) at the office. I even committed to getting my cleaner to pick up the baby one day.

My HR was convinced but wanted input from my manager. And she repeated her issue with projects and specifically one which is a systems upgrade andcwhich I need to supervise (I'm not IT but will own the project because it is for my division ). She said it will run for many months and that during testing time everyone will have to work linger, even weekends). Again, I said I'll be flexible as long as I have adequate notice of weekend work to arrange childcare. They said that I could even expense the childcare fees for that. On well.

I think you need to tell them what they need to hear but you have to stick to your words afterwords - the meeting was minuted I believe. They kept asking if I would cope with weekend work or overtime during projects.

If I have not opted out of working time regs can they reprimand me later for not doing weekends (say by taking away my flexi time arrangement)? What do you think? Or can they say 'you said that you would be flexible for weekend work)?

[LadyBee]

What specific information have you put down in the application about how you deal with the flexible working side of things?

Your manager needs to show that she has set in place 'strategies' for dealing with this so that it doesn't impact on other staff (or if it does, it is with their agreement).

My request had to be negotiated a bit and I remember getting very upset about it - feelings very similar to yours, 'why can't they trust me to make this work?', 'after all the time I've put in', 'this is stressful enough, they're just making it harder' - those were the sort of feelings running through my head at the time. Once it was all negotiated and agreed it felt like just a another set of hurdles to jump through in the path of being a working mother.

Have you put down potential solutions?

• eg. Do you have a laptop or remote access to necessary files. or a Blackberry. So that you can check email for urgent issues on the commute home and send a 'holding' one 'I can't deal with this now, I'm aware of the issue and will come back to it this evening at x time' - this at least lets people know that someone has got the message.

• Can you commit to a chunk of time, eg. 5 hours to be worked flexibly across the week. Core office hours of this. State explicitly that flexible hours will be worked in the office if possible.

• If you think your manager believes it's necessary for there to be a 'face' in the office for people to speak to when you're not there. Is there anyone who is ripe for promotion or extension of their responsibilities? Suggest this as a way to support their career progression?

Try not to be antagonistic about this, it needs to be a conversation./ negotiation. Listen to their worries and try to come up with solutions. If you can't think of a solution ask them if they can think of anything that could work - they must have had experience of other requests and should be able to share that experience.

For the record, I have an arrangement where I work 30 hours a week, two short days 9:30-4:30 where I do a pick up by 6pm, 1 long day at home so I don't have to do the commute, 1 long day at work, where DH does the pick up and 2.5 hours flexible (usually at home) spread across the week. I have a laptop with access to our network, my phone at work is linked to the laptop. We agreed that it would be easier for colleagues at work if I was absent completely 1 day - it's an easier message to say 'I don't work Tuesdays' and put an out of office on.

Good luck!

[RibenaBerry]

Jenny,

Sorry to be blunt again, but stop focusing on process. Yes, they have done bits and pieces wrong, but the penalties for that are very minor. Eyes on the prize!

In terms of number 3, a request for a temporary change is not actually a flexible working request (they only cover permanant changes). You have no automatic legal right to request temporary changes, so you wouldn't have been scuppered and your employer didn't actually have to use the form (if you were just talking about temporary at that stage).

Have you actually rung HR and said 'Please may I have the policy?'

I think you're still in the wrong mindset about this. You see no fairness in a pay cut and working over your contracted hours, but presumably you worked over your hours on a full time contract (apologies if that is wrong).

Squiffy speaks a lot of sense. She's a real expert in this area and a lot of her advice has been useful to me personally in balancing life and work.

[Jenny79]

I have a call with my supervisor tomorrow and HR will dial in. Let's see what they say.

I realize they haven't followed process correctly with me.

1. When I asked my supervisor about outing my request in writing she said to send her the details in an email and I had to point out many tome that there is a form that needs to be used which she didn't think it was correct. When she contacted HR about it, HR sent me the form but not a copy of the Flexible Working Policy ( which my company has). To date, even though I submitted my form, I still haven't received a copy of this policy.
   
   
2. no one told me that I only have one formal request per 12 months. Or that they have 28 days from receipt of my application to respond.
   
   
3. I submitted my application 8/1/10 requesting part time work for 2 months. My supervisor asked me to then update my app to also include the flexi time i'd need after the 2 months, without explaining that unless my app included both requests I wouldn't be able to submit a new app for the flexi time after my initial 2 month of part time were over.
   
   
4. my request was always with a start date of 1st march but surprise surprise I still don't have a formal response because of all the back and forth in my app, simply because no one ever sent me the policy details and steps to follow in this process. Being on mat leave means that I have no access to intranet to find policies (although hr should do this for me).
   
   I'll try not to be any more pessimistic about it. Will let u know how my call goes and how they propose to proceed.
   Change of contract to 9-4 is my last resort as it will mean pay cut and I see no fairness in getting a paycut and then be expected to work over and above these new contracted hours!
   I appreciate everyones responses so far.

[thenamesarealltaken]

Jenny, I have the same issue. My company do not like you saying you'd make up the extra hour or half hour at home (no matter how hard you try to explain and no matter how genuine you are). It seems many companies will be flexible in considering a new contract that suits you both (so they adhere to UK law). But, not in having hours flexibly worked by parents with young children. I say the same things to my boss that you do, but they just don't like it. And I could do a lot of my job from home too, and I would when my kids are in bed. But, they wont have it.

So I've altered my contract and get paid for a shorter day. Can you not just ask for a new contract based on 9-4? I know it's silly, when you know you will do the extra hour, but some companies don't like to encourage such flexibility and home working.

[Jenny79]

There's no registered childminder in my immediate area. And nannies cost in excess of £32k in Fulham London. Tried toregister on a website for nannyshare but didn't find someone close enough to my place (and the other mom kind of wanted both babies to be at her place all the time...). The nursery I found is a brand nes one, overlooking a new park and just opposite the bus stop, close to home. I can't afford nursery + someone to pick up the baby so ican stay longer.

What's the point really, staying late in the office just to show commitment or getting the job done? My boss needs to take a specific train to get hone so she needs to be out of the office certain time around 5.30 so she can't really do overtime. Same with other colleagues who commute by train. Isn't this the same thing? I don't have a train to catch but the nursery!

I ll be really pissed if they don't even give me a trial on flexi. There is nothing that cannot bd done from home in my job and there are rarely any emergencies. I've added that 'm happy to be contacted for urgent cases on my days off and to work overtime if given enoughnotice so I can arrange suitable childcare. Hope they're ok with that. Ok, prepared to sacrifice a big more. I don't want to go to war. That can be really stressful.