Irish self ID was 'snuck in by the back door'

[ArabellaScott]

Two Irish civil servants discussing trans issues, hosted by cross-governmental Proud to Work for Ireland network of LGBT+ staff networks.

From around 49 minutes:

'We were a world leader with, um, with our gender recognition bill in 2015, and uh, it it was just amazing to have self ID, and you see the the hassle that's been
caused and the uproar in in the UK when Scotland and now Wales both want to
introduce self ID, and the and the, um, Westminster government won't won't allow it.

They're taking it to to the supreme court there - it was almost a nonissue here, it was a non-issue here, although I suppose, I suppose one of the things was there was such a such publicity around the whole,marriage equality campaign that in a way we snuck that in by the back door [laughs]'.

[Abhannmor]

Can you post this in Craicnet , @ArabellaScott

[UtopiaPlanitia]

Yes, it very much was. The Denton’s playbook was in full feckin’ effect.

Ireland and Malta made for great proof of concept for the process and then could also be used to point to as 'successful implementation' 🙄

[Gwynethslightlysteamedvagina]

Such a shame Barbie Kardashian didn't get the memo.

[ArabellaScott]

@Abhannmor

Can you post this in Craicnet , @ArabellaScott

If I can find it, I will!

[UtopiaPlanitia]

I came across this apt quote from Robin McAlpine today:

'Why are we engaged in national
culture wars? Because the ruling classes (in Britain and Scotland) have settled on a unanimous position on an unchanging underlying policy approach to government so they need something to fight about in the staged theatre put on now and again when the polling stations are looming.'

[Mermoose]

@UtopiaPlanitia

I came across this apt quote from Robin McAlpine today:

'Why are we engaged in national
culture wars? Because the ruling classes (in Britain and Scotland) have settled on a unanimous position on an unchanging underlying policy approach to government so they need something to fight about in the staged theatre put on now and again when the polling stations are looming.'

In the context of Ireland this doesn't really fit. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael - and Sinn Féin, Labour, Greens, SocDems - are broadly on the same side of every issue commonly referred to as a culture war issue.

When you look at "culture war" issues, often they tend to be areas which are just very difficult to resolve. The refugee crisis and climate change are extremely challenging problems. Freedom of speech often isn't easy or pleasant to defend but is nonetheless necessary. Women's rights and the rights of trans people conflict in ways where it's impossible to give both groups what they want. People are uncomfortable acknowledging the trade offs and so deny there are any, which means that people who disagree with them must simply be bad. Polarisation ensues, we label these things "culture wars", and we move further from dealing with the problems.

[UtopiaPlanitia]

@Mermoose

In the context of Ireland this doesn't really fit. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael - and Sinn Féin, Labour, Greens, SocDems - are broadly on the same side of every issue commonly referred to as a culture war issue.

When you look at "culture war" issues, often they tend to be areas which are just very difficult to resolve. The refugee crisis and climate change are extremely challenging problems. Freedom of speech often isn't easy or pleasant to defend but is nonetheless necessary. Women's rights and the rights of trans people conflict in ways where it's impossible to give both groups what they want. People are uncomfortable acknowledging the trade offs and so deny there are any, which means that people who disagree with them must simply be bad. Polarisation ensues, we label these things "culture wars", and we move further from dealing with the problems.

Yes, they are (for now) all broadly on the same side in this culture war they’ve proclaimed so they jostle for position by placing themselves (and proclaiming their progress credentials) in opposition to voters and citizens who disagree with their views.

By trying to educate or force Irish people to think about the issues in the same way they do, politicians take steps that they approve of and that they claim are tackling the issues but which often don’t solve the issues as they’re viewed by or as they affect the public.

So, to me, it seems that, in each of the examples you’ve given, Irish politicians definitely favour one side of the debate and thus take actions to support only that side, or they take punitive action to discourage dissent (like the proposed Hate Speech Bill) and these actions don’t solve the issues where they intersect with and affect the lives of ordinary people. And this strengthens resentment and polarisation.

[VaddaABeetch]

Nothing to see here. No problems with self id here in Ireland. Most progressive country in the world. Move along now. No problems here

[Mermoose]

@UtopiaPlanitia

Yes, they are (for now) all broadly on the same side in this culture war they’ve proclaimed so they jostle for position by placing themselves (and proclaiming their progress credentials) in opposition to voters and citizens who disagree with their views.

By trying to educate or force Irish people to think about the issues in the same way they do, politicians take steps that they approve of and that they claim are tackling the issues but which often don’t solve the issues as they’re viewed by or as they affect the public.

So, to me, it seems that, in each of the examples you’ve given, Irish politicians definitely favour one side of the debate and thus take actions to support only that side, or they take punitive action to discourage dissent (like the proposed Hate Speech Bill) and these actions don’t solve the issues where they intersect with and affect the lives of ordinary people. And this strengthens resentment and polarisation.

Edited

I agree with you - what makes these things "culture wars" is the way they're treated and the polarisation around them. I don't agree with McAlpine though - I don't think these are issues which have been confected in order to give political parties a way to distinguish themselves from each other.

[Abhannmor]

@VaddaABeetch

Nothing to see here. No problems with self id here in Ireland. Most progressive country in the world. Move along now. No problems here

So true! And we're so pretty. All the women are beautiful faerie folk in floaty dresses. The guys are bodhrán playing Cillianesque hunks. We have all the material comforts too. It's true some people sleep in doorways. It's that ould Irish eccentricity. Sure where would we be without it? And it really doesn't rain that much. Honest.

[MarieDeGournay]

There's more stuff on this topic over on Craicnet, which I eventually found! with more detail about the Irish political context.

[Genesis1v27]

A link to the other thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/craicnet/5038839-self-id-in-ireland-was-sunk-in-by-the-back-door?reply=134133885