Autism society

[HDDD]

I was just on their website for something else and noticed their autism and gender identity page so clicked through....www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/what-is-autism/autism-and-gender-identity
"Gender identity and biological sex are different things. People are usually assigned a gender at birth according to their genitalia – male or female. "
NOT HELPING ANYONE THIS ASSIGNED BUSINESS!

[ClumpingBambooIsALie]

That is to say, they think they know about autism — enough to rule it out because the person sitting opposite them understands sarcasm or can do eye contact or has an expressive voice — but they're often out of date with knowledge on how autism without learning disability can look in adult women whose autism made them vulnerable to childhood/adolescent exploitation, and rather than referring to the overstretched diagnostic services for a proper assessment (one involving lengthy interviews and incorporating an examination of the person's developmental history and the use of thorough diagnostic instruments), look at the surface presentation and leap straight to BPD.

[ClumpingBambooIsALie]

@Tibtom

Unless she's trained and experienced in diagnosing autism in adult women, there's a fair chance they're right and she's wrong. I've known at least three women with BPD diagnoses who've later been assessed by (NHS) autism specialists

She is. She is trained and experienced in diagnosing autism in men and women. However, she is not just trained in diagnosing autism, she is also trained in diagnosing BPD.

That's fair enough — the NHS is full of general adult psychiatrists who aren't.

[HDDD]

I have been reading all the posts on here. I know very little about autism, so it's been mostly enlightening. I remain horrified at that line on NAS website about assigned, so dangerous, wrong and dangerous.

[Tibtom]

Unless she's trained and experienced in diagnosing autism in adult women, there's a fair chance they're right and she's wrong. I've known at least three women with BPD diagnoses who've later been assessed by (NHS) autism specialists

She is. She is trained and experienced in diagnosing autism in men and women. However, she is not just trained in diagnosing autism, she is also trained in diagnosing BPD.

[Queenelsarules]

I am diagnosed Autistoc myself, and fins so many Autistoc spaces are full of people who have bought into the whole Transwomen/men are women/men. I fear for my Autistic children, as well as mourning the loss of an online community which in lots of other ways is a haven from a confusing neurological world. It is ironic that within online Autistic community I have to mask my gender critical views or I would be ostracised.

[ClumpingBambooIsALie]

An awful lot of the most successful "BPD" therapy seems to be aimed at traits which are common in autism — mentalisation based therapy for understanding the neurotypicals, distress tolerance for the emotional regulation difficulties and sensory atypicalities, and so on — which is exactly what you would expect if a decent chunk of those diagnosed with BPD are actually (usually female, often traumatised) autistics .

[ClumpingBambooIsALie]

Which is very convenient, because we can classify the men as logical thinkers who can't help having a neurological difference and are probably really good at maths or some shit, and the women as hysterical, manipulative attention-seekers, and thereby have all our prejudices neatly confirmed.

[ClumpingBambooIsALie]

a friend who is a psychiatrist says it is not uncommon for those she diagnoses with Borderline Personality Disorder to arrive thinking they are autistic and it can take some explaining to help them adjust to their actual diagnosis

Unless she's trained and experienced in diagnosing autism in adult women, there's a fair chance they're right and she's wrong. I've known at least three women with BPD diagnoses who've later been assessed by (NHS) autism specialists who recognised that symptoms which looked like BPD to the general psychiatrist were better explained by an autism diagnosis. Additionally, I know a mother and daughter with BPD diagnoses whose son/brother had an ASD diagnosis, and another woman with a BPD diagnosis with a little boy with an autism diagnosis. Which, given the genetic factors involved, is highly suggestive to me that there's something there which is getting diagnosed as autism in males but as BPD in females.

[5zeds]

I think I’m bored of “parenting classes” being presented as a cure for neurological differences.

[Tibtom]

5seds do you think teachers should be taught how autistic children learn, best ways of communicating with them and how to adapt the class environment to make it more aitism friendly? Or do you think that if teachers make adjustments and provide support in this way it risks children not having enough problems in school to get referred for diagnosis?

[Tibtom]

They will of course still be autistic but they won’t be identified as early.

Except that in order to access this intervention they would be flagged up at a year old - considerably younger than most.

[5zeds]

the parents of about half of them were taught to:
- interact with their baby even if there was no eye contact
- play with them in a sensitive way that helped their development"

Well I think if the issue is poor parenting (which NOT doing the above would be) then yes you will help children who appear more autistic than they are because of insensitive of lack of appropriate interaction. They will of course still be autistic but they won’t be identified as early.

[InvisibleDragon]

I don't think the intervention was just teaching the babies to mask. It says that
"Over five months, the parents of about half of them were taught to:

• interact with their baby even if there was no eye contact
• play with them in a sensitive way that helped their development"

I don't think interacting with the babies who aren't making eye contact is teaching them to mask - more the opposite. It's helping the parents to interact with their baby in a sensitive way that meets that child's needs. A child with autism / autistic traits night initiate play with their caregiver in a subtly different way but would still enjoy playing - and will get developmental benefit from play - in the same way as neurotypical children. Teaching the parents strategies to engage with their child isn't teaching the child to mask, it's helping the child access developmentally appropriate play and learning that they might otherwise miss out on.

[helenshair]

What worries me is that growing up gender expression or identity was something every autistic I knew didn’t give a crap about. Now you’re attacked as transphobic if you don’t speak the right way or called a nazi if your diagnosis is the unacceptable one

This really interests me because I was the same - I was classed as a 'tomboy' - neutral, practical clothing, played with cars and lego, played cowboys with other kids, etc, but that wasn't out of the ordinary in the 70s. If I was primary school age now I get the impression my every move would be scrutinised and probably I would probably be classed as trans. But why on earth should a child 'express' a gender and why should there be a 'correct' way to do that? It's so regressive and narrow minded. I'm still not interested in being 'feminine' and I don't really know or care what my gender identity is. Nothing I've read has explained to me what it is to 'identify as a woman' beyond biology and the way we deal with it and are treated by society because of it.

I would love to learn from a community of more measured autistic voices, especially female ones

There is a FB group called 'women with autism/aspergers UK support group'. I've found some really useful info and good support on there. It's very active so the chances are you'll find topics that interest you most days, and other stuff you'll disagree with or will be irrelevant to you, but outside my face to face group it's the most useful group I've found.

I am not quite clear if the NAS is infering that parents shouldn't learn to respond to their babies' communication as lessening their difficulties by aiding their development is a bad thing?

I think their comment was in response to news stories that seemed to be reporting this as a 'cure' because the researchers said it reduced diagnoses. Of course it's useful to find ways of helping parents to communicate more effectively with their autistic children, but it's not clear why fewer diagnoses would be a sign of success, and whether it's just delaying diagnosis for those children, which many of us have experienced as having a negative impact on our lives.

[ASDmum2]

My kids (late teens) read that article and were quite dismissive - their perspective was that it just teaches masking at an early age.

So yes, in some ways the child would be more socially accepted because they would have the skills to blend in. But it wouldn't actually eradicate autism and it would just put more pressure on the autistic child to conform - conformity which some autistic people just cannot (shouldn't have to?) meet.

[5zeds]

Autistic children often develop skills in a different order to their NT peers. If morphing parenting results in them following a more NT path is that necessarily better? If it also means they don’t get diagnosed early will that be better? It’s an interesting idea but “parenting the autism out of them” is not a new idea and I think given it’s a lifelong disability it’s not a given that early masking is going to lead to better outcomes.

[Tibtom]

The end point of the study was just 3 years old. But is it beneficial to the child to have their parent understand and respond to their communication? I struggle to conceive of a situation where this is a poorer outcome for any child. The fact they had increased skills later on would suggest that it increased their development, or conversely that inability of a parent to pick up on their communication cues limited it. But whether it makes them happier at 37? who knows?

[5zeds]

Basically parents of babies with possible autism were trained to identify their babies communication in order to be able to respond to them/interact. This was found to reduce autistic behaviours at 3 years old so fewer were diagnosed autistic at that point. and did that lead to better outcomes for parent or child? Is the suggestion that these children were then not autistic? Is the suggestion that later diagnosis helped them? What was the benefit and to who?

[theaccidentaleconomist]

@5zeds I would love to learn from a community of more measured autistic voices, especially female ones. And parents/caregivers of autistic people too. It really is a relief to know I'm not the only one who feels like this.

There is a Mumsnetters with SN board here which has Autism and ADHD related discussions but it is very quiet. I only found it by accident as I wouldn't really have thought of looking there because of the name.

[Tibtom]

Interesting, and despairing, to see response to reports today about how parent training can reduce autism diagnosis: www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58626945
Basically parents of babies with possible autism were trained to identify their babies communication in order to be able to respond to them/interact. This was found to reduce autistic behaviours at 3 years old so fewer were diagnosed autistic at that point.

The NAS quote was "Autism is not a disease and not something that should be cured or lessened. Early intervention should be about supporting autistic people with the biggest challenges they face."

I am not quite clear if the NAS is infering that parents shouldn't learn to respond to their babies' communication as lessening their difficulties by aiding their development is a bad thing?

[5zeds]

I don’t think it’s so much that self diagnosed or those that wouldn’t have been diagnosed even ten years ago are present, I think it’s the size of their presence on social media and in support groups. By size I suppose I really mean impact. A small minority have arrived, and become the voice of autism. It’s not a thoughtful measured voice and it certainly doesn’t want to hear anything from the original participants. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve read people being told they cannot advocate for their child or speaking their behalf because someone who very obviously has no idea what more classic autism is like “knows better” because they are autistic.
It would be infuriating in any situation but if you are the ONLY way your child can have any voice at all, it’s awful. If you are also witness to a number of young people embracing and being supported gender ideology it becomes a fairly difficult place to be and frankly I doubt you’re very welcome anywhere.

[GCAutist]

My heart sinks when I see posts like this pop up in places I like. Thanks the the autistic people participating and speaking up.

There are a lot of problems with the autistic community (for want of a better word) and there are a lot of people adopting the diagnosis without even wanting to seek professional diagnosis (which devalues the do you know how hard it is to get a diagnosis argument). I’ve left most autism groups because they’re absolutely bonkers for the gender identity crap. They even came up with autigender which makes sense on the face of it, where autism affects your experience of gender but that’s not a gender that’s just life as an autistic person. Autism affects every element of life, not always negatively either. What worries me is that growing up gender expression or identity was something every autistic I knew didn’t give a crap about. Now you’re attacked as transphobic if you don’t speak the right way or called a nazi if your diagnosis is the unacceptable one.

I used to be quite proud of how I’d survived in spite of being autistic, now I tell no one and I’m embarrassed by the diagnosis as it’s so bloody fashionable right now and everyone seems to be adopting it to excuse inexcusable behaviours

[Sickoffamilydrama]

So glad to see this conversation is still going.

I find the waste of ££, time and energy that charities must spend on pandering to gender ideology so frustrating.

When that could be invested in helping adults & consistent with autism and their families.

I didn't know the story about why Asperger and autism merged and it's interesting the effect it has had. My DD right on the bottom functioning/IQ wise at 80 and she certainly needs a different kind of support at school to a child who is "higher up" the scale. Lumping everyone together won't help with this.

[helenshair]

ADHD is not mentally unwell

I know that. I meant that people often experience mental illness from the stress of coping with undiagnosed neurodevelopmental conditions. For me it was a huge relief to realise I was autistic. I'd had breakdowns, depression and anxiety for years and not understood myself. I still struggle with life, and have anxiety, but it's easier now I know why. I have heard similar from people with ADHD. But maybe that desperate search for answers means that some people would rather find any answer than wait for the right one? What I was trying to say is that there's an underlying desperation behind those incorrect self-diagnoses, not just a whim.

[LadyJaye]

I was diagnosed with Asperger's around 10 years ago, in my early 30s, and I very much resent the 'language policing' around it.

My experience (mainstream schooling, university/post-graduate, a successful career, relationship etc) bears no relation to the life of a non-verbal child with severe learning difficulties, for example: it would be wrong of me to attempt to speak on their behalf, or that of their parents, under some weird homogenised ASD 'banner'.

I continue to refer to myself as an Aspie.