Any GC feminists with autism?

[GCandautistic]

Hi all. NC for this. I am currently awaiting diagnosis for autism. I’m in my late 30s so it is a later life diagnosis. I am strongly gender critical but cannot be open about this at work. I am pretty high functioning in my career. I struggle a bit socially but not too badly.

One of the things I struggle with is how anyone can take gender ideology seriously. And also how someone can just not care. It’s just so blatantly a load of rubbish. Because this realisation about my autism is quite a recent one, I wonder whether being autistic has anything to do with my way of thinking. Obviously the majority of GC feminists will be NT but it would be interesting to hear from anyone who thinks their autism influences how they approach this issue.

@FrankensteinIsTheMonster

Namechangecosguilty — you see a lot of young low-support-needs autistics heavily involved in gender-ideology stuff, and I think there's a few reasons behind that:

• Many are preoccupied with fairness, and this is the current most fashionable social justice campaign
• Most will have personal experience of what it feels like to be the outsider, and instinctively side with those they perceive to be in that position
• Many societal gender roles and norms are arbitrary and not backed up by logic, leading autistics to question them, and modern gender ideology is often the main thing they come across when they start to investigate
• Many autistics will struggle to play the gender role society allocates to people of their sex (and would struggle with playing any societally-imposed roles, because of the nature of their brains) and genderism provides an explanation and a get-out

Additionally, a lot of online "autistic" communities have moved heavily towards a self-ID framework. Identifying as "autistic" (regardless of whether one would meet diagnostic criteria including the requirement for symptoms to have significant detrimental impact on say-to-day-functioning) shares many benefits with, and had a great deal in common with, identifying as gender-variant in some way. A ready-made and validating community, vindication of one's differentness/specialness, the ability to claim one is disadvantaged or subject to discrimination, justification for flouting arbitrary social rules, and so on. The individuals who are drawn to identifying as some variety of "queer" are often the same ones who are drawn to identifying as "neurodivergent". So in addition to there being what seems to be genuinely high levels of autistic people who are of a minority sexual orientation or identify as gender-variant in some way, there's also lots of people describing themselves as queer and autistic who haven't been assessed for autism, don't want to be assessed for autism, and IMO likely wouldn't meet criteria if they were.

So caring about fairness, feeling like an outsider, questioning societal gender roles and struggling to play a societally-imposed role. Really resonates @FrankensteinIsTheMonster

What difference would it make if everyone with autism, got diagnosed as a child? And then had access to a ready-made and validating community, independent of ideology?

Thanks OP and PPs.

I do of course recognise that autistic people have hugely varying levels of needs and I can see that as the parent of a child with a high level of need, you might get frustrated at people who appear to function almost normally using the same label.

But it’s worth bearing in mind that women have been so underdiagnosed through history due precisely to the points you have made. We look like we function but that’s a mask. Personally, when/if I seek out diagnosis, I will primarily use it for peace of mind. I certainly have no intention of taking away from any services for those with a higher need.

And while I can function without intervention, ‘mild’ probably isn’t a good term. I periodically suffer crippling bouts of depression where I can’t get out of bed, I struggle with relationships and am a target for abusive and manipulative men because I seem to repel most others by being ‘weird’, I have seriously considered ending my life on too many occasions to list. My ‘function’ comes from being able to hold
down a relatively well-paying job, being articulate and having a few friends. That and my masking ability means that most who met me probably would just think I was a bit aloof and distant rather than thinking anything more serious was wrong. That doesn’t mean that life isn’t massively challenging though. It’s exhausting and sometimes you also realise that some of the stuff that you thought was normal really isn’t. For instance, I’ve discovered that it’s not normal to have a 3-hour crying fit when you are told of some changes at work. Nor is it normal to rehearse conversations for even minor social interactions over and over in your head. But these were just things that I didn’t question myself doing.

I absolutely welcome increased recognition of female autism. Women are forced to develop high levels of masking and coping strategies partly because society won’t let us be who we are.

💐OP, your words are helping me and other women here. And on the point of recognising female autism, I think it would bring huge relief to girls (and transform their lives) if they knew they had autism in their early years. So that girls can understand how Autism affects them, share experiences and develop tools to deal with the common experiences you and other women on here have had.

Thank you @FindTheTruth. I’ve just re-read my OP and I think it’s maybe partly my fault for making out that my struggles are only mild. I think I meant more like what you would see if you were an outsider looking at my life. I do go to social events (well, pre-Covid) and I talk to people. I even make eye-contact (although I have to remind myself to do so). I have a job and a car and I have been a home-owner (and will hopefully be one again quite shortly). So, on paper, people might think well what’s the big deal?

The reality is something quite different. I now teach at a university. Yes, I have to have a lot of interaction during teaching but that is very structured - I know exactly when I have to do it and where. I get a lot of time to recharge my batteries and a lot of flexibility. It also makes sense to me now why I have no issues giving a lecture to 300 students but I can really struggle teaching a small group of students. But before teaching, I worked a pressurised office job and I nearly had a nervous breakdown. I remember leaving the office every evening and waiting for the train and thinking I should just jump on the tracks. It nearly broke me but thankfully I got out and did something that works better for me (although all the gender stuff in unis is taking it’s toll...)

Finding out that I have a high likelihood of autism (even though I have not yet been officially diagnosed) has been a revelation. It’s as if every single part of my life now makes sense. It explains why I was the one who struggled so much to make friends at school and uni, despite taking so much care to look and dress and talk like all the other girls. Why some people seemed to just take an instant dislike to me when they met me. Why, if I dated, it would always inevitably fizzle out even if I masked like crazy. Why I struggle with things like keeping my house or work desk organised and it wasn’t just laziness. Why I have been accused of being rude, inappropriate and excessively blunt without being able to understand why. Why people often laugh at what I say when I haven’t even tried to be funny (someone suggested I should be a stand-up comedian once - the absolute worst job for me!).

I listened to Holly Smale, the author, on Woman’s Hour this week. She’s around my age and has just been diagnosed. She likened it to thinking you’re a duck but you’re actually a frog. When you think you’re a duck, you think you’re a failure and a loser because you can’t do the things the other ducks can. But when you realise you’re a frog, you realise that actually, you have other skills and why were you trying to be something you weren’t.

I am already starting to be so much kinder to myself now. I no longer make my ‘on Monday, I will start being a Normal Person’ resolutions that would inevitably go all wrong. I am going to start doing things for me rather than what society expects. There’s no point in trying to fit in with something you can never measure up to. I also hope to maybe make some contact with other ND women rather than feeling out of place with NT friends. Basically it feels like a potentially fresh start (an actual one rather than all the other ‘fresh starts’ i previously made when I couldn’t understand what was wrong with me).

I was giving my own personal account of why I wouldn’t want to diagnose myself as I regard myself as mild.

I presume that you're not professionally qualified to 'diagnose' yourself. Most people aren't and even if they are, they can't. The assessment would have to be done by someone else who is qualified.

Self diagnosis is a misleading term. In order to have a diagnosis of anything, you have to have been seen by a person qualified to give that diagnosis. Without that, it's just an assumption, a thought.

You can 'self identify' not diagnose. But self identification doesn't mean it's correct. It's just your opinion. The same as self identification of 'gender'. A thought, a feeling.

Some people who 'diagnose' themselves with cancer can later be diagnosed with Munchausen syndrome (if it's found to be untrue and they are exposed).

I've noticed a lot of 'self identified' people who say they have autism defend their self identification by saying things like 'an assessment for diagnosis is meaningless, it won't help me' blah blah blah. The very nature of my autism meant that I had to have proper answers, I needed to know for definite and when I divulged it to my employer for reasonable adjustments to be made, I had the hard evidence to back up what I said. Self identity is 'shades of grey' and for me it was not enough and went against my personal beliefs.

I don't have a problem with people saying 'I think I may be autistic, I have quite a few traits and I can identify with the struggles autistic people talk about'. However, @WalkthisWayUK I find your comments offensive - 'mild autism' shows a lack of understanding of the condition.

I agree with points made by @RickiTarr. Thank you for your posts.

She likened it to thinking you’re a duck but you’re actually a frog.

Prefer 'Swans' 🤗. beautiful talented people soaring into the air. so many inspirational women, like Stephanie Davies Arai, making a difference in the world.

I am already starting to be so much kinder to myself now.
If every autistic girl or woman knew, they could do this too and live happy lives, proud of who they are

I've noticed a lot of 'self identified' people who say they have autism defend their self identification by saying things like 'an assessment for diagnosis is meaningless, it won't help me' blah blah blah. The very nature of my autism meant that I had to have proper answers, I needed to know for definite and when I divulged it to my employer for reasonable adjustments to be made, I had the hard evidence to back up what I said. Self identity is 'shades of grey' and for me it was not enough and went against my personal beliefs.

Yes, this. Now that I have realised this, I need an answer. A private assessment will cost me nearly £2,000. I am lucky to be able to afford to pay privately but that’s a lot of money and if I didn’t really care either way, I wouldn’t think of spending it. However, to me it is essential that I know.

@Clarice99 I think it’s really complex though isn’t it?! There is a whole generation of women who were missed. If I look at my life through an autism ‘lens’ a lot of it makes a lot more sense. It wasn’t even anything I had considered before my child was diagnosed. It allows me to understand myself a lot more than I ever did before.

BUT I do function remarkably well. I’m probably considered a ‘high flyer’ and am highly educated, with a pretty good career. Perhaps I would have achieved more career-wise had I had a diagnosis, and perhaps I would have understood my tendency to make quite strong friendship bonds in the ‘here and now’ only to have very little interest in maintaining those friendships in later life. I am prone to burning bridges, and the reality of my career is that I’m self aware enough to jump ship just before it all crashes down.

I still am mystified by women in groups, hate ‘girls night’ never understood the desire to spend 3 hours getting ready as part of the going out experience.

But then I look at my sister and I don’t think she has functioned in the same way; her life is fine but nowhere near reaching her potential. A stack of poor decisions leading to an overall picture. And I would say as a person she is only ‘borderline’ mentally stable.

And my dad: doesn’t function. Plain and simple. Is so rigid in his thoughts and has absolutely zero ability to tell whether people are interested in what he says or not. Our family life was pretty stable because he was my mum’s carer. But god, if we had to rely on his ability to function in the world of work? Impossible. He couldn’t have done it. And yet I don’t think he knows/realises that however obvious it is to me. He’s the perennial ‘wayward son’, the disappointment to his parents, the classic damaged soul. But I don’t think they ever understood that it was ‘can’t’ rather than ‘won’t’ where dad is concerned.

@GCandautistic

Why I have been accused of being rude, inappropriate and excessively blunt without being able to understand why. Why people often laugh at what I say when I haven’t even tried to be funny (someone suggested I should be a stand-up comedian once - the absolute worst job for me!).

I've had the same said to me more times than I can remember about being blunt, rude, inappropriate, hilariously funny and being a comedian.

I don't set out to be funny, blunt, rude etc. I just am and tied myself up in knots for decades as to why. Now though, I don't care. It's who I am and my diagnosis gave me permission to accept my differences.

I remember walking out of the building for the final time having undergone the whole assessment process and getting the verbal diagnosis (the multiple page report followed a couple of weeks later) and saying to my DH in a very loud voice - 'bye bye mask. The real me is here from now on'. Removal of the mask was a step towards acceptance and it allowed me to observe my thoughts and my behaviour.

If you haven't done so already, watch Hannah Gadsby, autistic stand up comedian. She said the day she got her diagnosis was like 'getting the keys to the city of me'.

@FindTheTruth yes swans definitely! I just wish someone had picked it up earlier for me. The signs were there early, such as hyperlexia as a child, lining up my dolls, obsession with horses (not riding so much as learning every part of their anatomy and being able to take a bridle apart and put it back together 😂), struggling with friendships and spending time on my own and in a fantasy world. My life would likely have been so different. At the same time, maybe being oblivious to it caused me to push myself harder and achieving more. Despite my achievements, I would always class myself as an under-achiever and a bit of a loser though. Now I can see that I am anything but.

@Springchickpea

Oh, absolutely a whole generation of women were missed and it makes me so angry! It's just another example of women being overlooked and minimised.

I wasn't diagnosed until I was in my early 50's. I'd begged asked various GP's to refer me, they more or less told me to fuck off with sexist comments like 'you're married, you have a job, you can't be autistic' AND 'go on a shopping spree, then you'll feel better' AND 'you're just hormonal'.

Fortunately, a consultant I saw for something unrelated told my GP to refer me, but by then I'd waited long enough and I needed answers so I paid for a private assessment while waiting on the NHS list for around 18 months. I had to stay on the NHS list in order to receive 'after care' from the NHS.

I'm awaiting diagnosis too. I'm in my 40s. I can't deal with lies and gender ideology is blatant nonsense so my brain can't deal with it. At a local event a couple of years ago there was a TW manning one of the stalls. Although dressed very femininely my eyes locked onto the broad shoulders, male legs and hips, and large hands and to my brain all these things added up to a visual lie. People can dress however they like but my brain won't be fooled into accepting an untruth.

Springchickpea that's really interesting what you have said about your family members. I also have a sister who is undiagnosed but is undoubtedly on the spectrum and is quite severely affected in that she has never been able to complete her education or obtain a job. She lives with my mum in her early 30s, although we are trying to take steps to get her a place of her own at some point. Her school years were way worse than mine and she really retreated into herself and was basically mute. My mum's friends have said stuff like 'give her an ultimatum - tell her to get a job or move out' but thankfully I have managed to persuade my mum not to listen to that stuff.

My parents are divorced and my childhood wasn't happy. I used to think my dad was a narcissist because of how he acted but I have come to realise that he must be on the spectrum too. He has had obsessional hobbies throughout his life. He goes on and on and doesn't notice people getting bored or annoyed. He will say blunt and inappropriate things to people and have no idea why. He hasn't done well professionally either. He probably does have some elements of narcissism thrown in there but autism makes more sense and it gives me a degree of peace to know that he couldn't really help the way he acted. My dad's brother is also suspected to be on the spectrum and displays very strong autistic traits.

Clarice99 thanks for the tip. I love Hannah Gadsby. I've also been watching Chris Packham's documentary which was quite emotional for me. He seems like such a lovely man.

@CervixSampler

I'm awaiting diagnosis too. I'm in my 40s. I can't deal with lies and gender ideology is blatant nonsense so my brain can't deal with it. At a local event a couple of years ago there was a TW manning one of the stalls. Although dressed very femininely my eyes locked onto the broad shoulders, male legs and hips, and large hands and to my brain all these things added up to a visual lie. People can dress however they like but my brain won't be fooled into accepting an untruth.

Yes, I agree. I can't do it.

Check out Gender Critical Autistics on facebook, there are quite a few of us.

For me, it's the language. I just can't say 'she' for a man. I know I'm required by the forum rules to do so, so I can't talk about individuals here as I cannot do the pronouns. It is not truthful and I don't think non-autistic people really understand the depth of our need to tell the truth.

I also think there's quite a gulf between 'self suspecting' people who have traits of autism but for various reasons haven't been able to access the diagnostic service - and self-ID 'autistics' who don't want to be assessed, don't display autistic traits but want a free pass for behaving quirkily/badly, and like to collect labels like pokémon. As a diagnosed autistic I'm 100% happy to have the former group in autistic spaces. The latter take over and ruin the space.

I also think there's quite a gulf between 'self suspecting' people who have traits of autism but for various reasons haven't been able to access the diagnostic service - and self-ID 'autistics' who don't want to be assessed, don't display autistic traits but want a free pass for behaving quirkily/badly, and like to collect labels like pokémon. As a diagnosed autistic I'm 100% happy to have the former group in autistic spaces. The latter take over and ruin the space.

I find it interesting that this behaviour 'take over and ruin the space' has a connection with self identification of the opposite 'gender' who also have a knack of 'taking over'.

It's a contradiction that people are gender critical yet 'self identify' to a medical, neurological condition.

The rules apply across the board, or not at all.

I am 'gender critical' and on the autism spectrum. I was formally diagnosed as an adult (36) although my suspicions started in my twenties and kept growing. I felt reluctant to join autistic groups without a diagnosis, although now I'm even more reluctant to join autistic groups because they seem full of gender woo and non-binary types.

I think if I was growing up today, I would also have jumped on the gender woo bandwagon as well. I really felt alienated from others as a child and teen. I struggled with the gender norms and hated how much freedom and leniency boys had compared to girls. Growing up in a South Asian culture it was obvious men held all the power and perks while women had the home and motherhood to look forward to. I knew I never wanted children and motherhood wasn't for me. I haven't changed my mind since. I hated womanhood because it was associated with weakness and all the restrictions that come with being an Indian woman. I think I would have jumped at the idea that I could 'turn into a man' and escape the social and cultural expectations imposed on me.

I've always felt like a failed woman. And it didn't help that my mother kept saying so as well. Kept saying I was abnormal because I hated playing with dolls or having long hair or wearing frilly dresses. It is hard to explain, but I would have described myself as a man trapped in a woman's body. I really didn't relate to many of the women I came across and still don't.

Luckily I did not come across gender woo and as I turned into an adult I thought to myself "I don't care if others think of me as a failed woman - I won't let them define womanhood for me." And then lived my life with zero fucks given.

Women and girls need better approaches to Autism so I hope PPs feedback to the Government consultation on women's health
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4247304-Government-Consultation-on-Womens-Health

Thanks for the reminder FindTheTruth.

Haven’t been diagnosed but suspect that I am. DD is going to have autism diagnoses explored shortly.

I don’t believe in gender ideology and DD has been sucked into it.

I find it interesting that this behaviour 'take over and ruin the space' has a connection with self identification of the opposite 'gender' who also have a knack of 'taking over'.

It's a contradiction that people are gender critical yet 'self identify' to a medical, neurological condition.

I haven't seen that much. Spaces that are explicitly both GC and autistic tend to be occupied by diagnosed autistics and some who suspect but are uncomfortable declaring it as a fact without an official diagnosis. Personally I didn't feel entitled to join autistic spaces without a diagnosis.

@GCandautistic

Thank you for sharing your experience on this thread. I was told I was probably autistic about the time my son received his diagnosis over 25 years ago. I refused the 'label' figuring that I had made it so far, and since my DS had it worse, I would be silly to think I had the right to say it affected me.

As I said before, I am nearing 60 and exhausted. It was interesting when I got my testing. One test they gave me was vocabulary. 'Bring it on' says I, I have a huge one. Then they hit me. With words that were perfectly english, no jargon or scientific stuff, but that I literally could not read, parse or pronounce. And that's when it hit me. I had memorized literally everything at some past point. That was the reason I had to drop out of IT training, because a ARM looked like a RAM and neither meant anything unless I forced myself to discern them every time.

Much of my casual social interaction is a series of reflexes and I am having problems with this coping device as I age and the sheer memory and energy that used to underpin it fades away. I am lucky to have some long time friends, and new friends that have looked past my oddness to get to know me better.

I am pursuing a diagnosis so that I can make this official and seek assistance for the problems related to my autism, etc so it can finally be addressed in situations where there is need for it.

GC and autistic.

I tend to stay away from autism 'communities' because, in my experience, they tend to be dominated by the self-diagnosed and parents of autistic children.

GC and autistic. I find it very difficult that people conflate sex and gender. They are two very distinct things. I can't see how there's any cross over.

Meeee.
Its not easy as most autistic spaces are really really sucked in by the gender movement and are massively woke.
I think theres a pushback though.

I think autistic people dont experience gender in the same way as NTs often do.
So much of our identity and social selves are acting and masking anyway. Gender is yet another performance