The SRA seems to have seen the light!

[SigrunGard]

Hi - long time lurker definitely radicalised by this forum 😁

Not posted before but felt this was worth highlighting. Every 2 years the Solicitor’s Regulation Authority require all solicitor’s firms to ask their to complete a Diversity Questionnaire, and report back their diversity data.

In 2019, the questions were

• what gender do you identify with?
  
• do you consider your gender identity to be different from your registered sex at birth
  

The new questions this year are:

• What is your sex? (Options of male, female, other preferred description , prefer not to say)
  
• is the gender you identify with the same as your sex at birth?
  

Small changes I know but important! Apparently the changes have been specifically made as a result of “considering the research undertaken by the ONS in preparation for the 2021 census and listening to a range of voices on the matter”

Push......

[SigrunGard]

@Spero- that’s great. Unfortunately I have no contacts at the SRA but I might just try an email anyway.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

😁 that sounds like a step in the right direction Spero

[Spero]

Just got an email from the BSB - they have taken legal advice and they are junking the 'I prefer a different term' and reverting to 'male, female and prefer not to say'.

Anyone who has contacts with the SRA might want to let them know. Seems pretty clear that this current position is unlawful.

[MotherOfDottirs]

Thanks to Fair Play For Women and all the people who gave little sums to enable FPFW to take the ONS to court. Just another couple of heaves with the SRA & BSB will see them getting things right. Maybe.

[stumbledin]

as I understand it, intersex people are still male or female. - yes I know, but for some the lived reality is different. And I am basing this on what intersex (as opposed to trans / queer) campaigners say. ie that the simple M/F does not acknowledge them.

It acknowledges a biological reality that frames the life of those who live with this.

As opposed to some sort of identification system.

And if they are to be named for data purposed it should be in the catergory of sex - not the rainbow identity coalition - in the same way that LGB is not part of it it either.

[MissLucyEyelesbarrow]

*@stumbledin- as I understand it, intersex people are still male or female. What they have is differences in sex development ( which is why it’s often known as DSD rather than intersex)

Most people with DSDs have completely conventional XX or XY genotypes. The DSD is usually caused by abnormalities in hormone production/response.

A minority of people with DSDs are not XX or XY. However, they are not on some spectrum between the two. The best way of thinking of this type of DSD is probably as a male or female with atypical chromosomes.

[SigrunGard]

@stumbledin- as I understand it, intersex people are still male or female. What they have is differences in sex development ( which is why it’s often known as DSD rather than intersex)

@Spero- absolutely. There are 5 possible responses to the sexuality question ( which includes “prefer not to say” and “other description”)

[stumbledin]

If we are adhering to the strictly sex as in biological, then shouldn't it be Male, Female, Intersex. The last may be a tiny group of people but better they are recognised as part of the biological reality of sex than being something that the rainbow umbrella can appropriate (ie increase their funding screen).

[Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons]

Sex : "other preferred description"
Eh? Humans are male or female there are no other sexes. Two gametes two sexes that's our lot.

[Spero]

I think 'prefer not to say' should be an option for ALL the questions. No one should feel compelled to give this information if they don't want to. I am increasingly ticking 'prefer not to say' re questions about my sexuality.

Refusing to answer a question does NOT skew data with the same seriousness as redefining the terms does. At least you can have a clear idea of how many people did not answer. But if everyone makes up their own response, what on earth do you do with THAT information?

[Feelinghothothottoday]

Exactly this - any data on gender pay will be rubbish. But it will enable orgs to tick that box that there is no pay gap on gender. Disgraceful. It took women years to get people to take notice of the pay gap.

[Soontobe60]

@Spero

I am writing to the Chairman of the Bar and saying if I see another questionnaire that says anything other than 'M F or prefer not to say' for sex I will be taking legal advice.

I really hope someone on the solicitor's side will do the same.

Bizarrely the last survey i got from the BC about working life at the Bar did have simply 'M F and prefer not to say' . There seems to be different wording everyone I get one of these surveys. I am now simply refusing to answer any which permit self identification of sex. I wasn't consulted about this, I don't think its lawful.

If there is a ‘prefer not to say’ option for sex, then what’s the point of the question in the first place? The data will be skewed if people choose the 3rd option so it becomes worthless data.
Where a company wants to collect information in order to ensure they are addressing the pay gap between males and females, and 10% of their male employees choose the 3rd option, the data may well show there isn’t a pay gap between the sexes, particularly if those men are higher earning employees. Even worse, if it’s females that choose it, who are lower paid employees, the data could be skewed to show females in their organisation are paid more than males!

[musingloud]

That's great! Such a sensible question that serves women and transgender people.

[PaleBlueMoonlight]

Yes, I can earth is too = Yes, I can see this too.

[Spero]

I am writing to the Chairman of the Bar and saying if I see another questionnaire that says anything other than 'M F or prefer not to say' for sex I will be taking legal advice.

I really hope someone on the solicitor's side will do the same.

Bizarrely the last survey i got from the BC about working life at the Bar did have simply 'M F and prefer not to say' . There seems to be different wording everyone I get one of these surveys. I am now simply refusing to answer any which permit self identification of sex. I wasn't consulted about this, I don't think its lawful.

[PaleBlueMoonlight]

@Spero

Sorry - I don't think this is good news at all. You will note they are allowing self identification of sex. This is exactly what the BSB are doing and I have challenged them.

I asked who they had consulted and was told - Stonewall, the ONS and the Association of Women Barristers.

The matter have simply ignored my emails requesting info as to what 'advice' they gave.

I do not think it is lawful to allow people to offer their own identification of what sex means and I will be taking this further.

Yes, I can earth is too. There is a contrast between the perception of uncertainty around sex and the emphasis on the idea that it is OK to want not to declare it out loud, while at the same time assuming the universality of gender identity.

[Helmetbymidnight]

could they provide a list of what 'gender' is - bullet points maybe - and the relationship it has to your sex?

i mean this is all nonsense isnt it?

[Helleofabore]

Thanks Spero for continuing to address this. It must be exhausting.

[TheWordWomanIsTaken]

I would like to not see the second question at all - I just can't understand what the relevance in knowing about someones personality is.

[Spero]

the options for sex should simply be 'male' 'female' or prefer not to say.

People with DSDs are still either male or female and entitled to claim that and be recognised as such.

I cannot see what possible utility there is in allowing people to insert their own preferred definition for sex. this destroys the utility of recording sex. Who did they consult over this?

I am surprised that so many seem to think this is a 'good thing'. I think its exactly the opposite.

[Helmetbymidnight]

i can see its an improvement but this is ridiculous-

is the gender you identify with the same as your sex at birth?

whats it meant to mean?- how do we know?how do you identify with a gender if they dont clearly lay out what a gender is?

[PaleBlueMoonlight]

Yes, much better. I would like to see a n/a possible answer to the second question, rather than the assumption that everyone has a gender identity.

[midgedude]

Looks good to me

They possibly feel they need to allow some space in sex. Some intersex snd gender dysmorphic people may find simple binary sex question very difficult


I don't see why you can't say "no" to the gender identity question about it matching your sex


Perhaps if people knew how common that was it would give them pause for thought

[Spero]

Sorry - I don't think this is good news at all. You will note they are allowing self identification of sex. This is exactly what the BSB are doing and I have challenged them.

I asked who they had consulted and was told - Stonewall, the ONS and the Association of Women Barristers.

The matter have simply ignored my emails requesting info as to what 'advice' they gave.

I do not think it is lawful to allow people to offer their own identification of what sex means and I will be taking this further.

[stumbledin]

Thanks to those who took the Census to court, and thank goodness at least one organisation has taken note.

I tried to present this as an arguement re collecting data on sex recently with a local government related organisation and they genuinely seemed unable to work out that their preference for the modern up to date use of the word gender was in conflict with the outcome of the Census decision.

Never heard of the SRA - but good to know. Maybe they would like to publish a paper on this decision and help influence others??