'Mother' and 'Father' advised against.

[AdaFuckingShelby]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-56372118

What's next? Primary care giver day?

[toffeebutterpopcorn]

As I said to DS only recently - you can mangle the English language and change words all you like, but the meaning remains the same...

[Outoftheshadow]

My granny used to go around with gay abandon. You can change worlds all you like but others will mutate to take up the same meaning, unless that is you can create a new language. ‘EngSoc’ perhaps to replace English society.
‘The destruction of words is a beautiful thing’ to quote an author who’s work has never seemed so relevant - any takers for DoubleThink

[ParadiseIsland]

On the other side, how much have women fight to change policeman to police officer. Fireman to firefighter (I’m sure there was some issues with fireman Sam not long ago).
Basically women being aware the words matter. And that words that automatically include MAN as the basic definition of what a human being is is a major issue.
There has been fight about nit automatically getting married, recognising the different styles of parenting (Incl same sex couples and children having two mums/dads).
There has been fights to have the role of father recognised for them to finally really be engaged in their own children upbringing.

All of that would lead to the changes highlighted here. (Yes bar the first two).

It’s unfortunate that what Stonewall is asking for is actually ALSO what feminists have been demanding for years.
The fact he is asking for the same thing shouldn't lead us to stop and refuse that very thing. It would be massive step back for women imo.

Where the fight should be is for mother/women to be used when it IS necessary. Eg b’fing, women’s only places etc etc
And yes those dreaded pronouns too.

[toffeebutterpopcorn]

@Quadzilla

Stonewall tell them to remove gendered terms including mother and father. A FOI to my local council showed feedback from Stonewall explicitly advising these word changes in policy so you can be rewarded by climbing their Workplace Index.

I misread that as ‘wokeplace index’. I wasn’t far off though.

[toffeebutterpopcorn]

@Quadzilla

Stonewall tell them to remove gendered terms including mother and father. A FOI to my local council showed feedback from Stonewall explicitly advising these word changes in policy so you can be rewarded by climbing their Workplace Index.

I misread that as ‘wokeplace index’. I wasn’t far off though.

[motherrunner]

@ErrolTheDragon Absolutely. I think a neutral term for a wide audience is acceptable, but that doesn’t negate ‘mother’ or ‘father’. I am a woman and being a mother is part of who I am.

[motherrunner]

@CuriousaboutSamphire Totally agree, it is down to context. If I’m speaking to a child one to one and know their home circumstances, I do refer to mum, dad etc. If speaking to a class or year group en mass I will say ‘care giver’.

Defo not advocating banning ‘mother’ or ‘father’. I am one (well, mummy), my children have a daddy. My nephews have 2 mummies. I have a mum, and so does DH.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

@motherrunner

I’m a teacher and never refer to parents/mother/father, I say ‘care giver’. I teach children from all households - step families, children with same sex parents, children in care. I think that term is all encompassing.

As Errol said, that's as it should be, though I was never comfortable with 'care giver' and used 'parent or guardian', which actually isn't that much better.

A parent/care giver is a non sexed position.

But a mother is female! Father male. They don't need to be removed, just used as appropriate!

[ErrolTheDragon]

@motherrunner

I’m a teacher and never refer to parents/mother/father, I say ‘care giver’. I teach children from all households - step families, children with same sex parents, children in care. I think that term is all encompassing.

Yes, quite - and this doesn't mean for one moment mean you want to ban the word 'mother', your NN suggests it's part of your own identity.

[motherrunner]

I’m a teacher and never refer to parents/mother/father, I say ‘care giver’. I teach children from all households - step families, children with same sex parents, children in care. I think that term is all encompassing.

[ErrolTheDragon]

When we're thinking of employment, for centuries many employers including all universities were single sex spaces and shouldn't have been. Society at large was completely heteronormative and shouldn't have been. A move to neutral language for roles which shouldn't be predicated on sex or sexuality is good. Imposing neutral language on roles which are necessarily sexed is bad.

[ErrolTheDragon]

@MedusasBadHairDay

You know that whole thing where TRAs act like just because an idea is also held by people they've deemed problematic it is therefore a bad idea? Yeah, let's not do this here. Just because Stonewall think parent/guardian is better for gender identity reasons, doesn't mean parent/guardian doesn't make sense in terms of different family setups.

It's actually an instance of stonewall promoting - for whatever reason - perfectly standard feminist and anti homophobic adjustments to the language. Part or all of stonewalls intent in this case could be primarily for the benefit of LGB more than T.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

@MedusasBadHairDay

You know that whole thing where TRAs act like just because an idea is also held by people they've deemed problematic it is therefore a bad idea? Yeah, let's not do this here. Just because Stonewall think parent/guardian is better for gender identity reasons, doesn't mean parent/guardian doesn't make sense in terms of different family setups.

It's part of the wider whole, I think!

Stonewall have a stated aim, it's been there for over a decade. They work towards, in their own words, removing the protected characterstic of sex, single sex spaces as they deem this injurious to transpeople.

So we see a slow creep:

Remove sexed terms and replace it with gender neutral

Take sex out of everything, make gender the go to term.

That's what is really being objected to. The continued slow creep.

[morekidsthanhands]

Really don't see the issue with this.
I am legally a parent to two children but not their mother. It's not woke of me to want to be included when referring to my child?

Lots of people up in arms about this in my local Facebook group last night. Claiming mother's day was cancelled. Its just about including everyone.

[MedusasBadHairDay]

You know that whole thing where TRAs act like just because an idea is also held by people they've deemed problematic it is therefore a bad idea? Yeah, let's not do this here. Just because Stonewall think parent/guardian is better for gender identity reasons, doesn't mean parent/guardian doesn't make sense in terms of different family setups.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Ooh! yes! I checked 'chest' but not 'son'!!! Grr!

Peroffspringchester it is!

[user1495884673]

@Lilyofthevalleys

Are they rebranding as Personchester university?

I think you mean Peroffspringchester university.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Pity I didn't proof read it

[AdaFuckingShelby]

CuriousaboutSamphire
Good point eloquently made.

[Potatgo]

Parent or guardian is used a lot on generic forms and I don't see a huge issue, not because of gender though. Partner is also fair enough, my best friend is married to a woman and she always by default gets asked about her husband; but saying that she's happy to just say nah it's wife, but appreciate not everyone is as laid back about it.

I do agree that mother and father shouldn't be 'banned', but it doesn't seem that's what is happening here?

[TeaAndStrumpets]

I can confirm that a very woke staff member of this University has just sent her Mum a lovely Mother's Day card.

[ErrolTheDragon]

But in a university I can't help but feel it's part of the erosion of the sexes.

I think it's more to do with trying to erode artificial 'gendered' roles and behaviours. Normalise the idea that parents, rather than mothers, need to shoulder parental responsibilities.

[ErrolTheDragon]

@Melroses

Parent or Guardian is appropriate in a school situation, because it is addressed to the person(s) who have legal responsibility to the child.

It makes no sense beyond that though. Certainly not adults at university.

Of course it does. Employers may have policies around adjustments for parental responsibilities. A uni almost certainly has crèches - they're not only for the benefit of mothers.

Using neutral for parent in these sort of situations is good.

If they've eg got breastfeeding facilities then they should refer to mothers, and add additional descriptors for the (mostly theoretical) Nb or trans parents needing to feed a baby.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

And below that in Other Stories there was a headline

Man and woman seriously injured after crash in north Manchester - an Audi fled the scene

WIth the same gudiance applied that would be Persons seriously injured (I hope thay are alright) outside Personchester and the anthropomorphising of a car? So

Two people injusted just outside Personchester. An Audi fled the scene

Do I worry for an aunt and uncle who live in Manchester and may have been involved? Or shrug and say no, it's just people, somewhere, nothing to do with me. But what about that car?

Somehow the car would be the most human thing in the headline!

[AdaFuckingShelby]

Wokeplace