Romesh & womanface

[FlamingGreatGalaahs]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLWTOfQFbts/?igshid=1mf12bnilwigs

Not sure why he's started down this route

[Cailleach1]

It could be said that the 'zwarte Piet' tradition in the Netherlands is a cultural phenomenon. The 'black Petes' are Sinterkalss' helpers, the tradition goes back to at least mid 1800's and they are associated with only good things- they give out presents to good children.

Yet, the depiction is being widely discussed as to whether it is offensive to black people. Over the top, yes. So is drag.

Is the argument that we haven't seen it, then we can't judge across the board? I wasn't at the fancy dress that Justin Trudeau darkened his skin and put on vaguely fairytale clothes, to be representative of Aladdin from Iraq. Would it have been ok if he had put on a turkish harem inmate's dress? Some, probably most harem women were captives or slaves. But some people's argument you'd have to be there to have a view. So would harem lady be ok, but Aladdin not? Is it ok for a male drag artist to get up like a harem female slave? If yes, why? Because exclusive women's (sexual) slavery is 'sexy' because we look at it through men's eyes and therefore men's slavery is never similarly shallowly depicted. Is it a sign of whose suffering matters?

Is it the same with a black and white minstrel show as with JK Rowling's article? If we haven't seen one, we should reserve our opinion.

Here is a taste of the Zwarte piets; What would you have to say to Romesh et al in a get up like that?
www.destentor.nl/veluwe/zwarte-piet-aanpassen-na-demonstraties-nee-het-is-hier-geen-discussie-zwarte-piet-blijft-zwart~a207ae34/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

Here is a female sex slave; Is it ok for drag artists (or Romesh in his try-out) to get up in a parody of this or similar? Then why not other slavery?
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/steamy-turkish-soap-opera-about-sultan-and-his-harem-makes-mps-blood-boil-3q2gvd2cn2m

[DisgustedofManchester]

Sometimes its not about you.... as I am sure someone famous once said.

[adviceseekingnamechanger]

I think Romesh and Rob are hilarious. This isn't offensive, they're just trying out drag. And while I can understand the argument, I don't agree that drag is akin to blackface. Drag queens aren't pretending they're actual women, if anything I think they're playing with/mocking gender stereotypes and I have no problem with it. Don't personally enjoy it much myself, and I do find the word 'fish' offensive, but it's not the same thing here.

[wonderstuff]

I don't think it's the same as blacking up, because drag isn't about taking the piss out of women, it has humour, but it's more directed at itself. The exaggerated nature, the vanity, the outrageous nature of it.

In black face the joke is on a caricature of black people, I don't think drag is the same. I think the history and development of it is quite different. I do think it is adult and I don't like the way its recently been mainstreamed and seen as appropriate for children and mixed with trans gender narratives. I find that uncomfortable.

[BIWI]

My pleasure @FlamingGreatGalaahs

Why not watch the programme and then see what you think?

[SerendipityJane]

The only good thing about drag is the horror it still provokes in the antediluvian parts of the US bible belt.

Of course it all dates back to a time when men had to play women on stage, as women weren't allowed. So it's "cultural" heritage is certainly one of oppression more than liberation. Arguably a slight difference between blacking up to play Othello, since (theorywise at least) there's no reason a black man couldn't play Othello, whereas no woman could play Desdemona.

Personally I enjoy Romesh, in the main. If nothing else the past few years have definitely seen some great comedians come up from a more diverse society than before with a fascinating take on their experiences growing up.

[wonderstuff]

It's a drag thing for their Sky 1 series, they egg each other on in uncomfortable situations to 'understand' more about different occupations or activities.

I think it's harmless. Drag was never a massive issue until it got mixed up with the trans rights movement. Back in the 90s I loved it when I went out clubbing and lots of drag queens were out. No one was pretending to be a woman, it was men enjoying glamour and dress up.

[Beamur]

I'm not a fan of drag myself, but it is a cultural phenomenon nonetheless.
I'd imagine that they will have fun with this without making any judgement, as I'd expect them to also do with the other cultural stuff they're doing.

[Regularsizedrudy]

Womanface wow. stop co-opting the language of anti racism in an attempt to legitimise your pathetic gripe.

[FlamingGreatGalaahs]

Would it be fine for a white female comedian to get dressed up as an Asian person then? Just to take the piss out of herself?

[FlamingGreatGalaahs]

@BIWI thanks for telling me what "I think I mean" !!! 😂

[BIWI]

I don't think you should criticise without seeing the programmes to be honest. It strikes me that it's like all those people who complained about the Harry Potter books without ever reading them.

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

Having seen the other shows, they won’t be taking the piss out of women or drag queens. They’ll firmly be taking the piss out of themselves. EG there was plenty of scope in their recent Art one to take the piss out of the pretentiousness of the situation but, no, they were quite respectful of the artists and experts taking part, just laughed at themselves and their own shortcomings where Art was concerned.

[MissBarbary]

@Cailleach1

Dunno. That is why I put presumably historic. They were once accepted by society as a lark of people putting on costume to effect the 'face' of others; just as drag is now.

You don't know if Minstrel shows are historic? The last episode of the BBC show was in 1978.

Remember the fuss when the photos of Justin Trudeau blacked up appeared?

Personally I'd be more offended by the drag itselfbeforeI got worked up over an attempt to draw humour from it

^ this. I'm indifferent to it. I don't find it amusing or entertaining but it's too ridiculous to take seriously.

[SerendipityJane]

@Cailleach1

Dunno. That is why I put presumably historic. They were once accepted by society as a lark of people putting on costume to effect the 'face' of others; just as drag is now.

I wonder if drag will go the same way ?

For reasons I can't quite fathom I've just remembered Jane Lynchs character in "The Marvellous Mrs. Maisel" who kind of "glams down" to make money ? Which is sort of a woman "in drag" as another woman.

I wonder if we die when we hit peak weirdness and can't process it anymore ? Maybe that's one for a doctorate ?

[Cailleach1]

Dunno. That is why I put presumably historic. They were once accepted by society as a lark of people putting on costume to effect the 'face' of others; just as drag is now.

[SerendipityJane]

If he was taking part in a black and white minstrel show

Are there many - if any - of those left in the UK ?

Personally I'd be more offended by the drag itself before I got worked up over an attempt to draw humour from it.

[Cailleach1]

@MissBarbary

But why do this at all? It’s offensive to women. Why not stick with being cricketers or snooker players or whatever. Why dress up like this with fake tits and thighs. It’s bonkers

You might well ask why do anything? I haven't seen this programme but I assume from the context it wasn't politely deferential to cricketers and snooker players. I assume this episode won't be politely deferential to drag queens.

Making fun of drag queens, which is what it looks like isn't "offensive to women"

hmm. You might well compare it to the (presumably historic) black and white minstrel shows. If he was taking part in a black and white minstrel show, would you say he'd just be taking the pee out of the black and white minstrels themselves (those who do blackface), not being offensive to black people?

[MrDarcysMa]

@ArabellaScott

Hm. This man always struck me as seethingly bitter and angry underneath the (fairly unfunny) humour. Can't put my finger on it, but I'd actually be uncomfortable to meet him in real life. Perhaps that's unfair.

Oh I like him! I like his shows and although his humour is a bit self deprecating and moany, he laughs a lot and seems to be having a nice time.

[ArabellaScott]

Hm. This man always struck me as seethingly bitter and angry underneath the (fairly unfunny) humour. Can't put my finger on it, but I'd actually be uncomfortable to meet him in real life. Perhaps that's unfair.

[highame]

I remember the days when humour was just that. Anyone remember Bernard Manning? What an awful person but he was never cancelled and he did more for women's rights by being so offensive than anyone I've heard from since. People just walked out of his shows if they were offended and lots of us women went along to heckle and then get removed. It was great fun

I love Romesh, he knows how to laugh at himself and I can't wait to see him try drag

[MrDarcysMa]

I assume they'll be bemused, mildly self conscious and have some comedy moments trying to walk in heels and trying on the boobs.

[MissBarbary]

But why do this at all? It’s offensive to women. Why not stick with being cricketers or snooker players or whatever. Why dress up like this with fake tits and thighs. It’s bonkers

You might well ask why do anything? I haven't seen this programme but I assume from the context it wasn't politely deferential to cricketers and snooker players. I assume this episode won't be politely deferential to drag queens.

Making fun of drag queens, which is what it looks like isn't "offensive to women"

[sashagabadon]

And I like romesh a lot. I love his travel shows and I enjoy his humour

[Biscuitsanddoombar]

This is part of a tv show where they try out different things & experiences

He’s not coming out as trans

The far more interesting thing will be how he & Rob reacts to the whole scene. I very much doubt there will be anything even vaguely critical allowed