Suzanne Moore left the Guardian

[DialSquare]

I've just seen this on Twitter. That'll be even more lost readers then. Not that I'm one of their readers.

[perfectstorm]

@Floisme

I'm not saying you don't talk about what happened or what he did - in fact you could argue we don't talk about it nearly enough. It's about whose story you tell, whose viewpoint do you tell it from. I think that all things considered The Yorkshire Post got it about right and The Graun bungled it badly.

Completely agree. It's whether the women whose lives he stole are seen as furnishings in the melodrama of his life, or human beings with feelings and relationships and hopes and dreams, all of which he stole from them.

I'd love to read an article that talked in detail about who they were, where they came from, what their lives consisted of, and who they left behind (as long as those survivors wanted to be included). That's the real story, when someone kills like this. What was taken by their actions, not the anatomical mechanics of how they harmed. Instead, their histories, personalities and lives have faded away into a void, while every detail of his gets obsessively recorded and picked over.

There's also research that shows focusing on killers in this way actually encourages others. It makes them darkly glamorous. The one time the media were very good was in refusing to play ball with that hideous man who wanted to be known as a crossbow murderer (won't use his preferred moniker). He absolutely wanted to be famous as a serial killer, and it was denied him. It should be all of them.

[PotholeParadies]

@highame

AnotherLass did he (LOJ) raise any cash? or are his fan club a bit strapped

It depends what his overheads for it are going to be.

He has 1600+ subscribers so far, and even if they're only subscribed to the cheapest tier of £3 (+VAT) a month (all tiers are equal it says...), that's £4,881 a month.

But he's got to employ a production team out of that.

www.patreon.com/owenjones84

[Floisme]

Yes, another time, another place, I might have made allowances. But they're out of credit.

[ShadyBansheeThing]

I know what you mean about the Guardian seeming dodgy now whatever they do. Everything feels tinged with misogyny.

[Floisme]

I don't agree with everything in that YP article by the way e.g they describe Sutcliffe as a 'monster from hell'. Nope, he was a man.
But what I think they do right - and where the Graun failed - was that they attempted to tell the story from the point of view of the women whose lives were ended and blighted.

[Floisme]

I'm not saying you don't talk about what happened or what he did - in fact you could argue we don't talk about it nearly enough. It's about whose story you tell, whose viewpoint do you tell it from. I think that all things considered The Yorkshire Post got it about right and The Graun bungled it badly.

[ShadyBansheeThing]

Agree the Yorkshire Post cover was very sensitive and thoughtful. But they still did a full write-up of his life, basically and obituary, just not called that.

[ShadyBansheeThing]

By household name I don't mean celebrity, I just mean someone everyone has heard of. Osama bin Laden is similar. I really don't think giving someone an obituary is treating them as a celebrity.

[Floisme]

I think that's kind of the point: Sutcllffe treated as a celebrity. I think the Yorkshire Post showed us how it could be done while The Guardian - who like to brag about their northern roots when it suits them - embarrassed themselves.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/peter-sutcliffe-has-died-our-thoughts-are-13-innocent-women-he-murdered-yorkshire-post-says-3034624%3famp

[ShadyBansheeThing]

But isn't it more likely to be whether the person is a household name, rather than whether they are or are not a terrorist? There were Osama bin laden obituaries, but most people couldn't name any of the London bombers so I wouldn't expect them to have any.

[Floisme]

Ha ha sorry I posted my own google search then.

Can't see anything for the Manchester bombers either.

[Floisme]

Obituary guardian Manchester bombers

[Floisme]

I can't see one for the London bombers for example.

[Floisme]

I think a more pertinent question would be whether they do obituaries for terrorists - which is what Sutcliffe was as far as I'm concerned.

But this on its own wouldn't have been such an issue for me. It's when I view it alongside the Graun's other behaviours that I start to wonder what's going on.

[ShadyBansheeThing]

Also Charles Manson, but they seem less apparent for some other serial killers like Harold Shipman and Ted Bundy

I feel horrible that I've googled them!

[ShadyBansheeThing]

Looks like yes to both of those

[RealityNotEssentialism]

Have they done obituaries for other serial killers? Ian Brady or Myra Hindley for instance.

[Floisme]

Yes I do take your point and 'of note' is probably a better way of putting it than 'respect'.
It still felt like The Graun giving me - and all the other women who endured Sutcliffe's reign of terror - the finger.

[ShadyBansheeThing]

But isn't that a bit of a slippery slope? I have no respect for PS but I also have no respect for a lot of other people who have done a lot of harm - arguably even more in some cases - but who you would expect to see an obituary of, like I don't know Mugabe, Bin Laden, etc. If obituaries are only for people who deserve respect then it becomes a value judgement and could end up with people being cancelled for other reasons.

I think an obituary is for people of note.

[Floisme]

An obituary, to me, is a mark of respect. I put Sutcliffe on the same footing as I would a terrorist, as that was what he did to women living in West Yorkshire / Greater Manchester in the early 80s. So it feels in pretty bad taste to put it mildly, maybe not a deal breaker on its own (for me) but grim nevertheless.

[ShadyBansheeThing]

Yes I don't really get the obituary fuss. I'd totally expect to see an obituary of a well-known murderer - I'd want it to be tasteful and not dwell on horrible details or glorify the person, but I'd consider it a normal thing to do. It's a bit like a funeral - a kind of closure on their life, whether bad or good.

I do think the media should use his name and not his grim nickname which must be upsetting for victims' loved ones.

[FloralBunting]

Betty, you're just always so damned cool.