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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The commodification of women - as shown on magazine covers across the decades

73 replies

needaMNnamegenerator · 14/08/2020 12:56

I just came across this article. Really interesting comparison of magazine covers over decades, but utterly depressing.

AIBU to think it's capitalism we're up against really these days, isn't it?

Depressing because it feels like a much harder fight than going up against 1950s stereotypes, which our foremothers did pretty successfully. But while we've gained freedom in so many areas, the commodification of women (and everything) is intensifying isn't it? (Or does it just seem harder as it's our fight, and we're living it.)

If radical feminism is about getting to the root, well, there's not much point in fighting the magazine industry - it's just demonstrating the influence of consumerism isn't it? And that's the real problem - isn't it?

The commodification of women - as shown on magazine covers across the decades
OP posts:
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PlanDeRaccordement · 16/08/2020 14:08

Marx on communism abolishing private property, including how it affects women go from private property in marriage of their husbands to communal property in communism.

“Private property is first considered only in its objective aspect – but nevertheless with labour as its essence. Its form of existence is therefore capital, which is to be annulled “as such” (Proudhon). Or a particular form of labour – labour levelled down, fragmented, and therefore unfree – is conceived as the source of private property’s perniciousness and of its existence in estrangement from men. For instance, Fourier, who, like the Physiocrats, also conceives agricultural labour to be at least the exemplary type, whereas Saint-Simon declares in contrast that industrial labour as such is the essence, and accordingly aspires to the exclusive rule of the industrialists and the improvement of the workers’ condition. Finally, communism is the positive expression of annulled private property - at first as universal private property.”

“Communism is....The category of the worker is not done away with, but extended to all men. The relationship of private property persists as the relationship of the community to the world of things. Finally, this movement of opposing universal private property to private property finds expression in the brutish form of opposing to marriage (certainly a form of exclusive private property) the community of women, in which a woman becomes a piece of communal and common property. It may be said that this idea of the community of women gives away the secret of this as yet completely crude and thoughtless communism. Just as woman passes from marriage to general prostitution, [Prostitution is only a specific expression of the general prostitution of the labourer, and since it is a relationship in which falls not the prostitute alone, but also the one who prostitutes – and the latter’s abomination is still greater – the capitalist, etc., also comes under this head] . – [Note by Marx see +++ below ]

“The community is only a community of labour, and equality of wages paid out by communal capital – by the community as the universal capitalist. Both sides of the relationship are raised to an imagined universality – labour as the category in which every person is placed, and capital as the acknowledged universality and power of the community.”

“In the approach to woman as the spoil and hand-maid of communal lust is expressed the infinite degradation in which man exists for himself, for the secret of this approach has its unambiguous, decisive, plain and undisguised expression in the relation of man to woman and in the manner in which the direct and natural species-relationship is conceived. The direct, natural, and necessary relation of person to person is the relation of man to woman. In this natural species-relationship man’s relation to nature is immediately his relation to man, just as his relation to man is immediately his relation to nature – his own natural destination. In this relationship, therefore, is sensuously manifested, reduced to an observable fact, the extent to which the human essence has become nature to man, or to which nature to him has become the human essence of man.”

+++
Marx refers to the rise of the primitive, crude equalitarian tendencies among the representatives of utopian communism at the early stages of its development. Among the medieval religious communistic communities, in particular, there was current a notion of the common possession of women as a feature of the future society depicted in the spirit of consumer communism ideals. In 1534-35 the German Anabaptists, who seized power in Münster, tried to introduce polygamy in accordance with this view. Tommaso Campanella, the author of Civitas Solis (early 17th century), rejected monogamy in his ideal society. The primitive communistic communities were also characterised by asceticism and a hostile attitude to science and works of art. Some of these primitive equalitarian features, the negative attitude to the arts in particular, were inherited by the communist trends of the first half of the 19th century, for example, by the members of the French secret societies of the 1830s and 1840s (“worker-egalitarians,” “humanitarians,” and so on) comprising the followers of Babeuf (for a characterisation of these see Engels, “Progress of Social Reform on the Continent” (Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Collected Works, Volume 3, pp. 396-97)).

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PlanDeRaccordement · 16/08/2020 13:37

I’m not in the USA btw.

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PlanDeRaccordement · 16/08/2020 13:36

You can't say that Marx's definitions are wrong; he literally wrote the book on communism.

I’ve not said Marx definition of communism is wrong anywhere ever. I am using the official definition;
-a political movement that believes in an economic system in which the state controls the means of producing everything for the people
-a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
-a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.

And capitalism
-an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

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crunchermuncher · 16/08/2020 10:13

Are you in the USA? Your definitions of communism don't match anything I've ever read (in the uk).

I don't think anyone is arguing that Soviet Russia was in fact a utopia for women, rather that the ideas in theory would free women from their role as producers (theory and practice being somewhat different, as is often the case). You can't say that Marx's definitions are wrong; he literally wrote the book on communism.

I don't think this tangent is a derail actually, as the OP was about commodification of women, it seems appropriate in considering how that has come about.

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PlanDeRaccordement · 16/08/2020 05:18

Marx and Engels in 1848 were ahead of most of their 20th-century followers in regards to women's liberation.

Except they got one thing wrong. They thought marriage and family were a tool of oppression of women. So they say abolish religion, marriage and family and women will be liberated. When Soviets tried this women were not liberated but became more a tool of production than they ever had been.

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BitOfFun · 16/08/2020 05:08

I assure you that I haven't misunderstood anything, having studied it for the best part of a decade. But let's just agree to disagree, because it is derailing the thread.

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PlanDeRaccordement · 16/08/2020 05:07

Butoffun
I have studied Marxism closely.

Yes I could tell you were spouting Marxist ideals and propaganda sound bytes rather than the reality of how communism works.

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PlanDeRaccordement · 16/08/2020 05:04

You've misunderstood the basic definition in capitalism, which is that the people who own the means of production are capitalists. A capitalist is not a worker

Your basic definition is wrong because it’s circular. My definition is the correct one.

Yes they are in fact workers. They are not proletarians which is a term describing only the lowest unskilled type of worker or labourer. You start a company under capitalism and it has shares. Shares are a % ownership in the company. These shares are divided between the initial employees (a CEO is an employee and simply the highest ranked worker), and these entrepreneurs ARE IN FACT workers. As a company grows, it offers shares to other employees as part of their compensation, who ARE ALSO WORKERS. How do you think first employees of companies like google, Apple, amazon etc got rich? It was through being first workers with part ownership early on. And you can’t say that for example, Tim Cook is not a worker because he works. Nor can you say the average IT engineer in Apple that gets stock options as part of their salary, not a worker.

Once a company goes public, via an IPO, only then can investors buy a share or % ownership in the company. Many companies never go public.

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BitOfFun · 16/08/2020 04:46

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Bitoffun
You clearly do not know that communism and capitalism are merely economic systems in which ownership of the means of production is either in the hands of the workers individually (private) or in the hands of the nebulous State (public).
You clearly do not understand that inequality is higher under communism than capitalism.
You’ve fallen for the utopian propaganda of Marx and failed to look at the facts of actual communist countries versus capitalist countries.
Please please take a university level course in economics. It would impress on you most assuredly the difference between the too and the fact that of the two, only communism worsens inequality.[/quote]
I have studied Marxism closely. What you describe is arse about tit, bluntly. That's why I assumed you had mis-typed. I was not being disingenuous in any way.

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BlackForestCake · 16/08/2020 01:54

If we're quoting bits of the Communist Manifesto:

"The bourgeois clap-trap about the family and education, about the hallowed co-relation of parents and child, becomes all the more disgusting, the more, by the action of Modern Industry, all the family ties among the proletarians are torn asunder, and their children transformed into simple articles of commerce and instruments of labour.

"But you Communists would introduce community of women, screams the bourgeoisie in chorus.

"The bourgeois sees his wife as a mere instrument of production. He hears that the instruments of production are to be exploited in common, and, naturally, can come to no other conclusion than that the lot of being common to all will likewise fall to the women.

"He has not even a suspicion that the real point aimed at is to do away with the status of women as mere instruments of production."

Marx and Engels in 1848 were ahead of most of their 20th-century followers in regards to women's liberation.

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Goosefoot · 15/08/2020 19:39

That’s because Marx and other communists claim that ownership is by “the People” when “the People” actually is how they refer to the State, or government Party in charge. Look it up. Under communism the actual people or workers own nothing, there is no private property whatsoever.

You've misunderstood the basic definition in capitalism, which is that the people who own the means of production are capitalists. A capitalist is not a worker, that is a member of the proletariat - those are the people who do not own the means of production, so make a living selling their labour for a wage, to a capitalist. The classic example would be the guy who owns the textile mill is the capitalist, the people he employs for a wage are workers. They cannot make a living on their own because they do not have a means of production. This leaves them vulnerable in a number of ways, and the tendency is for the labouring workforce to be exploited.

In state communism of the sort endorsed by Lenin or Mao, the state owns the means of production. The idea here was that the state is ultimately "the people" and works on their behalf, rather than for private interest of a few capitalists. Of course it didn't work out that way in practice, Lenin, Mao and the rest turned out to be pretty much as exploitative as the capitalists were and workers were no better off. (This doesn't tell us much about the practicality of Marx's thoughts which were not really along the lines of state socialism.)

But a system where workers own the means of production is not capitalism, by definition. The characteristic of capitalism is that most people sell their labour to a few capitalists, which is in fact the system we have as you can see when you look at statistics about how much is owned by the 1% and how much by the rest.

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Imnobody4 · 15/08/2020 14:43

I've started to liken all this to our attitudes towards food, bear with me. Someone on Twitter spoke about the extension of our 'sexual palate'. This is clear to see in choking, anal sex and Brazilian waxes etc.
I remember when garlic was considered an unpleasant foreign addition to food.
The introduction of unlimited sugar (pure, white and deadly) into the normal food chain has been a heath disaster and a capitalist triumph. Now every cafe has rows of giant muffins on sale. Our naturally regulated appetites have been hacked and it all seems normal.

This has been done by the increasingly sinister use of psychology and neuroscience in advertising, coupled with laissez faire capitalism and cries of freedom of choice and rational actors (both dubious, simplistic ideas).
Someone above quoting John Berger nailed it. Women take on (have been assigned the role of commodity, presenting themselves to be relished and consumed.

There is no alternative for young women who have been brainwashed for decades by increasingly passively sexualized images of women. During the Second World War women drove ambulances, worked on farms etc. Rosie the Riveter was on a poster.

We've also corrupted language so agency becomes doing whatever you choose, not about having an effect on (changing) the world. Also the obsession with how many 'likes' you can acquire.

Capitalism isn't going to change this winning formula anytime soon.

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DaisiesandButtercups · 15/08/2020 12:43

I rather see charity as a basic human drive pre dating either capitalism or communism.

I consider capitalism is a pretty basic concept about accumulating wealth and allowing that to happen unhampered. Capitalism is what happens naturally when “might is right” and people are not that bothered about some people living in poverty so that others can live in luxury. It is less likely on a smaller scale because in small communities people are more likely to feel a connection to their neighbours, to value community and looking out for each other and to value the perception of others that they are fair/decent.

In the early days capitalism was imposed by authoritarian regimes just as much as we saw with communism in the 1900’s. I am thinking of armies, kings, the East India company, colonisation and Empire building. Capitalism by force goes back really to the agricultural revolution and the beginning of the idea of accumulating wealth and property at the expense of others. The more wealth you accumulate, the more power you have the more wealth you can accumulate and so on. With settlement and agriculture you begin to be able to store food, you can get a slave class to work the land, a warrior class to defend the land and get more land.

Now we are so entrenched in capitalism that we cannot really think outside of money making the world go round. Marx and Engels had a good go at that. We seem pretty much stuck in an endless cycle of production for the sake of economic growth including commodification of human beings, women and children especially.

Mammon really is the God the whole world worships above all others.

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ChurchOfWokeApostate · 15/08/2020 11:23

Charity is unnecessary in a communist state since everyone has the adequate means to live and keep healthy
That’s what I meant, it doesn’t exist on communism, therefore must be a capitalist concept?
(Know it’s more complex than that, but if we’re going by a capitalist-communist binary)

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DaisiesandButtercups · 15/08/2020 11:23

I don’t support communism I am just trying to explain what it is.

I don’t want to derail the thread either but perhaps it helps to consider the representation and status of women in different political/economic systems.

Understanding a bit about Marxism is helpful to a class analysis of structures and rights in society. Some would argue that we can best defend women’s rights by seeing women as a class in the Marxist sense.

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DaisiesandButtercups · 15/08/2020 11:16

From the Communist manifesto by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels

“By bourgeoisie is meant the class of modern Capitalists, owners of the means of social production and employers of wage labour. By proletariat, the class of modern wage-labourers who, having no means of production of their own, are reduced to selling their labour power in order to live.”

A Capitalist has capital which they leverage to create more wealth for themselves.

A worker has no capital and thus has to sell their labour in order to live.

Capitalism has nothing to do with charity.

Charity is unnecessary in a communist state since everyone has the adequate means to live and keep healthy.

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Wondersense · 15/08/2020 10:48

Things aren't great today but let's not think that things were better back in the day. Women were basically not allowed to have a fully developed sexuality and was simply not done to talk about sex. There was a lot of slut shaming, a lot of judgment (there still is today but I think it was worse then). Women were expected to model themselves on the Virgin Mother, otherwise you might be seen as a bad woman, soiled, a whore in some cases.

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ChurchOfWokeApostate · 15/08/2020 10:11

You may dispute the end result but the stated purpose of communism is to put the means of production in the hands of the workers as opposed to capitalism which allows the means of production to be in the hands of private individuals

I don’t understand this, what’s the difference between a ‘worker’ and an ‘individual’?
Is it that worker is just one part of the colony, a tiny part of the bigger collective? Everything is done for the colony. (Or for The State)
It doesn’t make sense then, that one of the mantras is power to the people, when it’s only the State that has power, the workers have no power on their own. It sounds like double think to me.
Power to the people makes sense to me when power is the hands of the individual, not the State.

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ChurchOfWokeApostate · 15/08/2020 10:07

I always thought capitalism and communism were:
Doing things for yourself/your family
Vs
Doing things for the collective good.

Communism requires everyone doing their bit for the collective, and the state, and amassing wealth for the collective/commune.

Capitalism is attempting to amass wealth for the individual/individual family units.
I thought charity work features highly in capitalism (by definition charity wouldn’t it’ll be needed in communism), so it’s not just capitalism = selfish, communism = giving.

I’ve never studied economics so maybe I’ve got that wrong.

Capitalism always made more sense to me, because I think people will always work harder and be more productive if they can tell how their actions will directly improve their personal/their families lives.

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ErrolTheDragon · 15/08/2020 08:36

Maybe it's the case - roughly - that from the start of agricultural societies, be they feudal, capitalist, communist or whatever. elite males have commodified women and lower ranked males? But women were 'valued' and controlled in different ways?

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DaisiesandButtercups · 15/08/2020 07:05

Again PlanDeRaccordement your definitions of communism and capitalism are not quite in line with what I learned at university. You may dispute the end result but the stated purpose of communism is to put the means of production in the hands of the workers as opposed to capitalism which allows the means of production to be in the hands of private individuals. The owners of the means of production in capitalism are not the workers, the workers are employed by the owners of the means of production and subject to whatever pay, terms and conditions the private owners choose to impose.

Communist states did provide greater equality for the majority of people, less freedom of choice but greater equality.

The state is merely a structure by which the people organise their affairs.

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PlanDeRaccordement · 15/08/2020 06:38

@Goosefoot

Yeah, I was a bit confused about the workers owning the means of production in capitalism business...

That’s because Marx and other communists claim that ownership is by “the People” when “the People” actually is how they refer to the State, or government Party in charge. Look it up. Under communism the actual people or workers own nothing, there is no private property whatsoever.
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PlanDeRaccordement · 15/08/2020 06:35

@Bitoffun
You clearly do not know that communism and capitalism are merely economic systems in which ownership of the means of production is either in the hands of the workers individually (private) or in the hands of the nebulous State (public).
You clearly do not understand that inequality is higher under communism than capitalism.
You’ve fallen for the utopian propaganda of Marx and failed to look at the facts of actual communist countries versus capitalist countries.
Please please take a university level course in economics. It would impress on you most assuredly the difference between the too and the fact that of the two, only communism worsens inequality.

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Goosefoot · 15/08/2020 01:07

Yeah, I was a bit confused about the workers owning the means of production in capitalism business...

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BitOfFun · 14/08/2020 22:05

@PlanDeRaccordement

Capitalism relies on inequality as does patriarchy.

No capitalism doesn’t rely on inequality, quite the opposite. In capitalism the producers (or workers) own the means of production instead of the State (or government) owning the means of production. It’s a society based on voluntary cooperative enterprises rather than a society based on involuntary work units where you, as a worker, do not even own your own labour or what you produce through your labour.

Patriarchy is completely separate from the economic system in use.

I was going to go off on one about how wrong you've got this, but then I realised see that you've just written 'capitalism' instead of 'communism' by mistake in your second sentence. Oh, for an edit button!
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