Boss using "Mr" unnecessarily

[greentomatos]

I work in financial services. Team DoD about 30. About 75% men.

The boss is ex private school and ex oxford. I think he went to an all boys school.

He frequently refers to male team members as "Mr surname" rather than just using their first name. He refers to female colleagues using their first name.

I find it infuriating as it is like working in some sort of old boys club.

WIBU to say something? How do I bring it up?

[MoleSmokes]

MaybeDoctor - Oops! My comments re "no excuse" were not directed at you but I can see now why it looks that way

The "adding titles" thing is interesting because I read it as a means of deliberately constructing a "status difference" between men and women, harking back to bygone "etiquette".

Between married couples, it would now be very old-fashioned for a man when talking to his wife to call her, "Mrs Jones" and for a wife to call her husband, "Mr Jones". Both would have referred to their "equals" using Title+Last Name but to the "the lower orders" by their first names, indicating a difference in status, in social standing, but not necessarily a lack of respect.

However, to deliberately "first name" someone against the grain could be done in order to indicate lack of respect. As a corollary, to "Title" someone when "undeserved" could indicate either elevation, due to respect, fear, etc. or a Uriah Heep-type sycophancy.

I read the OP situation as the Boss artificially constructing status differences by adding Titles to the men's names but not to the women's.

Another dimension, where cultural norms differ, can be familiarity vs formality. At the same time that I was in the "Martin team" I was also working elsewhere with a woman my own age who was Swiss, from Zurich so "German Swiss". We became friends and she talked to me about how difficult she found it that in England it was the norm for people to call each other by their first names, unless they were family or very old friends.

She explained this as analogous to levels of "familiarity" being one of the relationship differences signalled by the French "vous" vs "tu".
www.lawlessfrench.com/grammar/subject-pronouns-tu-vs-vous/

In the health-care setting it was expected practice when first meeting a patient to first use Title+Name, ask how they would like to be addressed, and state own name and role, eg. "Good morning, Mrs Smith, my name is (preferred method of address). I am your (Dr/physiotherapist/etc.). Is it "Mrs Smith" or do you prefer "Mary"?"

My Zurich-friend could not deal with this at all. She could not help but find it offensively over-familiar and therefore disrespectful even to ask! It was months before she felt able to ask if she could call me by my first name, after we had spent time together socially, been round to each other's flats for tea, had long heart-to-hearts, etc.

The sex-difference in the use of Titles in the OP also has a whiff of "over-familiarity" about it, ie. in addressing only the women always as "first-name-only". I've got a sort of "spidey-sense", gut-reaction sort of thing to it

Maybe a bit off-topic, the use of last-names-only (mostly an "old school" and "military" phenomenon?) is also interesting in that it usually only carries over into adult, civilian public life when men are being named. I wonder if it also relates to the old-fashioned ways that husbands and wives used to address each other though?

I never heard my mother or her friends refer to their husbands, directly or indirectly, as anything other than "Last Name", ie. in exactly the same way that the men referred to each other. The women were always referred to by their first names.

I used to think that was a carry-over from the war years, when so many men and women were in the armed forces (that sounds an old-fashioned term now too). I am wondering if it is instead a vestige of the old, mutually-reciprocated formality when husbands and wives used Title+Last Name for each other? Not something I have ever looked in to, so pure speculation.

Whatever. The Boss in the OP is using differences in manner of address to create and impose a hierarchy in which all men, whatever their official role or relative status, are elevated above all women.

Hard to imagine that any of the men affected are posting on a forum somewhere, saying that this makes them feel uncomfortable and asking for advice about how to address it . . . they have everything to gain by compliance and possibly also if they rebel, whereas the women have everything to lose, whether or not they comply or rebel.

It will usually be a woman who kicks over the traces and then some men and women will usually "support her". In quotes because hard to know whether any such action "supports her" rather than "opposes him". Their motivation might be less than pure so perhaps best to think of them being onside as "my enemy's enemy" rather than as "my friend" until they prove otherwise

The practice in the OP has to be opposed or undermined though. It is insidious, despicable and damaging. There are lots of different suggestions - I hope you find one that works for you OP greentomatos - Good luck!

[Longtalljosie]

I think this might be time for a bit of strategic confusion.

“Sorry - can I just ask a housekeeping question? I’ve noticed that we seem to switch between Christian names and people’s titles. Which is it?”

Then reflect every time.
“Emma, has that been done?”
“Not yet, Neil. There’s a problem with the supplier”

“Ms Jones, has that been done?”
“Not yet, Mr Smith...”

[LouHotel]

Ugh as a general manager where only 10% of my counterparts are women I feel you.

Not so much title but absolutely referred as first name on meeting compared to the boys having their full name in introductions.

When I was a senior manager With the door opening in business and financial meetings I'd used it to my advantage and would go and sit at the center of our side of the table, if they wanted me in blthe room first they can sit at the end.

[MaybeDoctor]

Definitely no intention to excuse! My analysis relates more to the man in the OP than in your post, who seemed an obnoxious little man. Adding titles to people who don’t normally use them is one thing, removing professional titles from those who have them is quite another.

[MoleSmokes]

Thank you MaybeDoctor

"My guy Martin" was not public school. There are all sorts of reasons they pull this sort of shit, none are excusable and the bottom line is that they are disrespectful. TBH I am not that interested in why they behave that way, they just need to stop - asap

There was a social worker on the team who was nearing retirement age and she had corrected him by stating "Mrs X" when he first-named her. He called her "Mrs X" after that but in a very pointed way, just the safe side of sneering and repeating her name unnecessarily to wind her up. He was pathetic and it made a bad atmosphere for everyone, while he obviously thought he was being very clever.

It worked much better to bat it back at him and give him a taste of his own medicine. He knew he had lost respect with the team and he was very status-driven. He actually started to work to earn it, rather than amuse himself scoring cheap points lording it over the women and trying to look big with the lads.

I don't think he had any idea how much some of the blokes despised him. He set a very bad example though and it would have been easy for any others so inclined to have followed his lead.

What was ironic was that prevailing narrative was all about the need to change "old fashioned" attitudes. The other consultants were all around retirement age or older, one was in his early eighties, and they were all so respectful of patients and other staff. They were lovely, caring and such a joy to be around

[MaybeDoctor]

I think it might be a boys' public school teacher usage e.g. male teacher jovially referring to boys as 'Mr Brown' and 'Mr Smith' on the sports field, as I have heard it used in a similar context.

In his strange mind he may think of himself as the 'teacher' of the team and that his male staff are the 'boys'. Women don't fit into this naming system as there weren't any girls at his school.

Loving your work MoleSmokes .

[Hannah021]

i'd just say "miss jones, please" when he calls me and wait for him to correct himself. I wouldnt respond to him calling me directly without correcting him.

No need to question him "why yada yada"... Keep it straight and simple

[BeetrootRocks]

www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/why-are-female-doctors-introduced-by-first-name-while-men-are-called-doctor/2017/06/23/b790ddf2-4572-11e7-a196-a1bb629f64cb_story.html%3foutputType=amp

It was doctors

[BeetrootRocks]

There was a study about this about presenters at conferences, may have been tech, not sure.

The men were generally introduced by title full name and the women were generally introduced by first name.

It's one of these things that adds into a wider picture of sexism/ discrimination but each on their own gets seen as petty. This happens with a lot of women's stuff.

I'll try to find the thing I'm thinking of.

[MoleSmokes]

I was once in a team led by a cocky young medical consultant who called all the men by their correct titles (Dr X, Mr Y) and the women by their first names, plus he would trivialise and demean the women by interrupting their reports to case conferences and ward rounds by suddenly complimenting them on their appearance.

I just started calling him "Martin" and interrupting his self-important monologues by complimenting him on his lovely tie, nice haircut, etc.

It only took a couple of times for him to get the message - he knew bloody well what he was doing and he stopped first-naming and interrupting all the women.

[Goosefoot]

If he's generally a reasonable person, I'd just ask him about it. I'd guess there is a reason he does this, whether it's an old habit or reflects something about the relationships he has with different employees or something else. But it's likely that if you ask, he'll get the point that it's being noticed that he's treating the men and women differently which he may not have thought much about.

I'd avoid making it an big issue right off though, for two reason; one being that people tend to push back when they feel they are being attacked even if it's not reasonable, and the other just being that we probably have all done some stupid things at work from time to time and hope someone points it out nicely rather than making a fuss.

As far as whether it's old-fashioned, I think it's up to him if he wants to be old fashioned and formal or more familiar, as long as he's pretty consistent.

[greentomatos]

[ThinEndoftheWedge]

I went for a date once with a bloke who insisted on walking kerbside to protect me from the traffic.

We didn’t go out again. Lots of cringe around

[greentomatos]

He does sometimes call the men by just their surname too.

Another thing he does is if a group of us is walking to a meeting (eg me, him and 3 men) he will open the door and wait for me to walk through first, before any of the men can walk though. I think he thinks this is impeccable manners but honesty it makes me cringe. I feel like a show pony having to prance through doors in front of everyone.

[TeiTetua]

Actually if he was really being public-schoolboyish, he'd call men by their last names only, and women either by their first names or with "Miss" and "Mrs" (and not "Ms").

[FloraFox]

It's definitely a status thing and he probably knows he's doing it. You calling other women Ms, Miss or Mrs won't make any difference to him as he probably sees that as being something you might do but not relevant to him.

My first professional job was in a formal, old fashioned environment. Everyone in the organisation called those in a more senior ranking role by their formal titles and everyone lower by their first name. It's too hard to explain exactly without outing myself but it was a "level" thing rather than an individual thing so I would call senior men in my function by their first name and vice versa but everyone in a lower function by first name, regardless of age or seniority in that function. A bit like doctors calling nurses by their first names and nurses calling doctors Dr X. I was very young and there were some men working in the mail room and as drivers who were retried from previously held positions of authority in a related organisation where they would have been called by their titles. I could see they hated having to call me Miss Fox while I called them by their first names as I was very young and also working class.

The only way to change this is to ask him why he does it. Could you do that in a friendly, casual way? Also, make sure you call him by his first name.

[BrexpatInSwitzerland]

I work for a boss who - if left to his own devices - will tend to do this.

Professional services, very "proper" and quite form type of work environment - but also "work hard, play hard" central.

He never did it again after I once called him "peaches" in a conference call with our CEO. It's now strictly "Brexpat" when it's just us and "Ms Switzerland" whenever a third person is present.

Caveat: boss and I get on like a house on fire. Despite his occasional failings (and mine) we're sort of the professional love affair of the century. I wouldn't recommend my approach unless your boss loves youbto bits and vice versa.

[WhereYouLeftIt]

Arggh, that strikeout was not meant to be! Should have read

In this film, the white female supervisor addressed her black counterpart by her first name, whilst being addressed as Mrs ? by the black female supervisor. By the end of the film, the black supervisor was being respectfully addressed as Mrs ? by her white counterpart.

[WhereYouLeftIt]

Recently watched the film 'Hidden Figures' about the black female mathematicians in NASA.

In this film, the white female supervisor addressed her black counterpart by her first name, whilst being addressed as Mrs - by the black female supervisor. By the end of the film, the black supervisor was being respectfully addressed as Mrs - by her white counterpart.

It is, IMO, an issue of respect. By calling the women by their first names an the men by Mr Surname, he is demonstrating clearly that he has less respect for his female staff.

[CountFosco]

Or maybe it would be better to get some of the men onside and get them to ask him.why he does it. Sexist men will respond better to other men calling them out on their misogyny than an 'uppity woman'. Sad but true, we need allies to deal with men like this.

[CountFosco]

If he was just old fashioned he would be calling everyone by their titles. But by not using titles for women that he does use for men he's deliberately conferring a lesser status on the women. What does he expect people to call him? The only situation you normally see this is e.g. servants being called by their first name but having to call the people they are serving by their title. It's all about status.

I think one of the first replies is right, the ideal professional response is to ask him about it outright. But you'll need to think about if there might be fallout for one of the women if she asks. Or

[DidoLamenting]

It sounds excessively formal and a bit precious or mannered, in a fuddy-duddy, old-school way

And even if that were the case- so what ?

[BoomBoomsCousin]

If it’s simply a matter that it’s an affectionate way of referring to people he’s close to it’s even more worrying that he manages to be close to the 75% of his reports that are male but none of his reports who are female.

Since it’s a largish team ir seems unlikely that he’s actually close to all the men and more that he uses it as a way to try to form a bond with the men but since he doesn’t have a similar way to types and form a bond with people on his team who are female the effect of this will be sexist.

Not sure what the best way of tackling it is, though. If you have a reasonable relationship with him and he seems generally well disposed to the idea of trying to treat people equally then there may be an opportunity to bring it up. If not I would look to outside opportunities- surveys, anonymous reporting, etc. or possibly support or networking group for women in you company, to feel out how worthwhile it is.