'Trans regret' on Jeremy Vine R2 today

[NoSquirrels]

Covering the story about Keira Bell.

[Waspnest]

Yes the naturist bit also pissed me off. The man had absolutely no comprehension of why a woman on her own in a park might have a problem with a group of naked men coming towards her. And he then implied that people with young children being offended by naked men roaming the countryside were being prudes. Absolutely no understanding about the idea of boundaries.

I just rolled my eyes when SG came on, why people give her the airtime I have no idea (mind you the JV show used to regularly feature Katie Hopkins so I shouldn't be surprised).

[agentnully]

Why don't the parents get educated on how to cope with their children wanting this?

Shouldn't there be more support from MH services and more information as to how children can and do get overwhelming feelings of confusion at puberty and that pushing or getting pushed down this route is not the only way to go?

I missed that segment of the show so thanks, Pombear.

I did catch the segment about the naturists jumping on the 'hurt feelings' bandwagon. The man - a self-confessed 20 stone bloke (must be a lovely sight naked, no apologies for saying that. After working in the NHS and seeing my fair share of large and small naked men, am wondering if his penis is hidden by his 'apron' so doesn't come across as threatening) - tried to shame the woman caller upset by seeing three naked males walking in her park a prude. Well down to her for standing her ground, though missed the opportunity to point out that most naked males in a park ARE out to shock and distress as most seem to be flashers.

As someone who seems to have a giant neon sign on my head saying 'flash me' I get really angry by men who try to say it's completely harmless.

As with the self ID issue of men in women's spaces, who can guarantee that the perves aren't going to be hiding behind the naturist tag?

Sorry for going off-topic. I'm so bloody angry about all this bullshit I can't control myself!

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

Wasn't Green's previous job as an IT consultant? Not sure how that qualifies anyone to advise children on medical decisions.

[Smallblanket]

Thanks for the transcription - always good to read and think about what people say a bit more slowly.

SG is absolutely wrong about the therapy that Keira Bell would have had in the adult gender clinic. My DD has ASD, is 21, loads of comorbid difficulties. She was given a diagnosis of GD after a single 45 min appointment at the adult NHS gender clinic. A second appointment really only looked at paperwork, then she was referred to an endocrinologist for what she cheerily describes as "HRT". No therapy whatsoever - and no other professional involved in her care will dare investigate further for fear of accusations of "transphobia". This is despite the NHS statement given out on last year's Newsnight piece on detransitionjng that all patients are given extensive therapy.

Constantly trotting out the 1% regret rate when no one actually knows is misleading propaganda.

[PermanentTemporary]

'It wouldn't work for 99% of our young people'

Is that Susie Green saying that 99% of young people who contact Mermaids transition?

I thought they were just about lovely support for teenagers who might be questioning their 'gender identity'? Not that every kid who contacts them is pretty much guaranteed to be full on trans and needing full medical transition?

I hope one day SG will have therapy. Proper, searching, supportive therapy. But then I wish shed had it 30 years ago.

[BringbackLang]

I'll try again so it makes for sense-


I wish someone would ask SG what her actual qualifications in this subject are, not just having a trans child. I also wish they would bring up her taking her gender dysphoric child abroad for medical procedures.

'So you worked in IT and now you head up a charity that encourages giving puberty blockers to young children'.

[BringbackLang]

I'd wish someone would ask SG what her actual qualifications in this subject and being up her taking her gender dysphoric child abroad for medical procedures.

'So you worked in IT and now you head up a charity that encourages giving puberty blockers to young children'.

[crsacre]

It is worth noting that SG has not said that her own child is now thriving as an adult and illustrates the great success of medical transition. After being the centre of two documentary films, on transition and on modelling, SG's child has disappeared.

[TheProdigalKittensReturn]

She's wrong about the numbers, and must know that. So why is she giving out that 1% figure?

I think some people will do almost anything to avoid having to face up to the reality of what they did to their own child and how little evidence there is for that being the right decision. Green strikes me as someone actively avoiding self awareness.

[NoSquirrels]

Thank you, pombear. It is so interesting to read it, having listened live.

I c+p-ed this from the transcript before I got to the end of the thread:

"Well it wouldn’t work for 99% of our young people, and that’s, that’s the point that I’m making here. That, you know Jeremy, it’s incredibly difficult to watch your child struggle when their sense of self differs from their gender assigned at birth"

because it struck me hard at the time, listening live, that SG went back to her own experience. She hadn't, before that point. And then the personal "your child" crept in.

I've just nodded in agreement to your subsequent posts discussing exactly that.

[pombear]

Absolutely rogdmum, that really struck me. This is the CEO of the charity whose lobbying has pretty much scared off many counsellors and psychotherapists etc, who would like to offer that holistic support and exploration but could be reported for not affirming gender.

This is the CEO of a charity whose website advice to GPs You may also wish to refer to CAMHS but it’s not necessary to go through CAMHS as GPs can refer directly.

[pombear]

SG says That, you know Jeremy, it’s incredibly difficult to watch your child struggle when their sense of self differs from their gender assigned at birth, and to actually say that those children now are not going to, or potentially there’s going to be a change that they’re not allowed to have any kind of help because of less than 1% young people who go through this I just think is incredibly worrying.

I get this. I truly do. If you had taken a decision to take your child to the US in their young teens to get puberty blockers, because the UK at that time did not allow them to be prescribed.

If you had taken the decision to take your child to Thailand to have surgery on their 16th birthday (more challenging surgery, because the puberty blockers had given the surgeons 'less to work with').

You're going to relate it back to 'you' at the centre of the story. And you're going to find it worrying, because if the review decides that more evidence is required before treatments are offered, it challenges your world view and your previous actions.

And you're going to try to focus on the 1% theme - which actually isn't the core of the review, given that it was initially brought by Sue Evans, as a whistleblower of the actual clinic, and is about concerns of lack of evidence, and undue pressure on GIDs from charities such as Mermaids.

[rogdmum]

Thank you pombear . What really struck me when I listened this after noon was this part:

“ talking to those families and talking to those young people, you know, the distress that I hear every day from those kids that are sat on that waiting list, who have access to no support whatsoever while they wait for something whilst they are massively distressed and just suffering so badly, ”

Does she even listen to herself? That’s exactly one of the big problems - kids sitting on a very long waiting list with no support. How many more would desist during this period (because we know quite a few do already) if they had proper regular holistic counselling? But no, Susie only sees PBs as the end goal, the only solution for these children/adolescents.

[pombear]

JV asks So it wasn’t all triggered by three hours of conversation?

SG says Absolutely, they, there’s ongoing support

But that's exactly what Keira has reported, three hours of consultation.

SG says as she made those decisions in adult services to have totally irreversible, erm, procedures with the mastectomy

Keira has already talked about the irreversible effect the testosterone has had on her voice, and how that makes her feel, in other interviews that I am sure Susie has seen. The puberty blockers, the hormones, had irreversible effects.

There seems to be such a blinkered one-way view that this CEO can absolutely not acknowledge what other people are saying or experiencing if it conflicts with her own world-view and actions.

[pombear]

SG says But the double mastectomy was at 20 years old and the process that she would have had to have gone through to be able to be approved for that would have been as extensive as the process that she went through when she got blockers

Uninformed listener: not aware that the blockers and the affirmation from the GIC have already set Keira down the path of disassociating from her sexed body, of stopping natural hormonal development etc at 16. These two events, getting blockers and going for a mastectomy are not unconnected.

[pombear]

SG says In our 25 years of experience of working with children, young people and their families what we would say is that the numbers of young people who do change their trajectory, who move away and decide that this isn’t for them is, is less than 1%

I can't work out whether she's using the research that Stonewall recently quoted, that was based on looking at records of current NHS patients - therefore, not including those like some of the detransitions who have spoken out, who have said they haven't returned to the clinics they were originally under.

But she says 'in our 25 years experience' - so does Mermaids have its own research on this? I would anticipate that any young person who detransitions would give this charity a hard swerve, given that there seems no space, acknowledgement least of all support for detransitioners. Mostly from their CEO, given the lack of empathy for Keria's story in this interview

decide that this isn’t for them ' this' being a life-long medicalisation of your body

[pombear]

Part 2

AH: Yes, this is a case that is going to be looking at the issue of consent, but my understanding of what lawyers are going to argue is they will say they want more checks and balances under the age of 16, so it might be that there are more hoops that people have to jump through, so I don’t think it’s a blanket no one will ever or, no one would ever get, er, puberty blockers, for instance, under the age of 16. It’s more that there needs to be much more discussion and understanding of, erm the process and, and also the research behind this because erm it’s, it’s interesting looking at the numbers it, I , from the research I’ve looked at it’s quite difficult to understand the level of regret that people may find.

JV: You think it’s more than 1 %?

AH: I don’t know, I don’t know. But I would say is that It is clearly rare because people have to go through a lot of hoops, erm, but the research in this area shall we say, is ongoing, I believe.

JV: I, I, erm Susie from your description it sounds like there is an enormous amount of thought and counsel and, and so on that goes into anything happening physically and I just wonder how much more you can do?

SG: Exactly, and the fact is that young people aren’t even managing to get past waiting lists for at least two years, so after two years of sitting on a waiting list they then have, generally it’s a minimum of a year of counselling, talking, working through this before any medical intervention is considered. I don’t see how you could put much more in their way in terms of hoops, talking to those families and talking to those young people, you know, the distress that I hear every day from those kids that are sat on that waiting list, who have access to no support whatsoever while they wait for something whilst they are massively distressed and just suffering so badly, and then to have this cropping up, which essentially to them means that, you know, their options in terms of their, their future access are getting further away, and you’ve got to remember as well that anybody under 16 it has to be with parental consent so this is not something that’s being decided by a 14 year old with no, erm, back up or consent, this is a, this is a conversation that happens with young people and their families and their clinicians over a period of time.

[pombear]

Jeremy Vine: JV
Susie Green: SG
Alison Holt: AH

Part One 1

JV: Is there a lesson here Susie that goes beyond Keira’s individual case?

SG: Thank you first Jeremy for having me on today, I really appreciate Mermaids being able to have a voice in this. In our 25 years of experience of working with children, young people and their families what we would say is that the numbers of young people who do change their trajectory, who move away and decide that this isn’t for them is, is less than 1% . So we need to be really careful about examining one specific case and one specific regret, and then look at to whether or not it’s proportionate to then backtrack it through all of those other children and young people who desperately need this medical intervention, who aren’t able to access it because of waiting times and then when they do get in, it’s a minimum of a year before they get any kind of option for medical intervention, and actually look at this with the lens of OK so, you know, but this is being regretted by one person. But the double mastectomy was at 20 years old and the process that she would have had to have gone through to be able to be approved for that would have been as extensive as the process that she went through when she got blockers.

JV: So it wasn’t all triggered by three hours of conversation?

SG: Absolutely, they, there’s ongoing support and as she went into adult services and as she made those decisions in adult services to have totally irreversible, erm, procedures with the mastectomy she was 20 years old. So it just seems to me to then say nobody else should have access to this treatment because someone was in the 1% of people who regret this, means that nobody else should have the opportunity to make informed consent, I don’t think, I don’t think that is reasonable.

JV: Well that, that is the key issue. Whether you can, whether you can budget for the case that will be regretted, and if you did, you would, when Kiera approached her NHS gender clinic at the age of 14 she would be told come back in five years. But that might not work for your other patients.

SG: Well it wouldn’t work for 99% of our young people, and that’s, that’s the point that I’m making here. That, you know Jeremy, it’s incredibly difficult to watch your child struggle when their sense of self differs from their gender assigned at birth, and to actually say that those children now are not going to, or potentially there’s going to be a change that they’re not allowed to have any kind of help because of less than 1% young people who go through this I just think is incredibly worrying..

[pombear]

It's fascinating properly listening to what Susie Green says (and doesn't say) If I had been listening when I was a more uninformed listener about this topic, I would have just thought 'oh, that wait with no support is terrible'.

But I listened carefully - and knowing this was all coming from the CEO of a charity who travels to WPATH conferences and cheers on faster-tracking, affirmation only, no lower age limit, etc, it was an odd listen.

It may feel like transcript city around here at the moment, but they do seem to help get to the bottom of what's actually being said. Here's Susie's bit:

[WrathofFaeKlopp]

To quote the phone-in caller again..
'The schools eyes seem to light up when I told them"

[WrathofFaeKlopp]

All these equality champions, logos, brownie points, events, a bit more equipment for the school maybe.

For example,
Why are schools in Oxfordshire more woke than Berkshire?
There must be something else surely.

Are the councils/individuals benefitting from this financially?

[rogdmum]

That was annoyingly brief. I emailed in but they only seem to have taken that one fantastic caller plus a short email read out.

[Helmetbymidnight]

i missed most of it but thought keira was absolutely great- cool, calm speaker- hard to disagree with.

then i heard tavistocks polly? awful- shes been captured by this ideology completely. the way she said 'yeah we're seeing a lot of 'assigned' females. ffs.

neurotrash, the City also loves it- the banks are thrilled to be ticking inclusivity, diversity, equality boxes without them having to make any real changes.

[StealthPolarBear]

Good to hear this was mostly positive

[NoSquirrels]

Well, funny, because he ended the call-in but by saying "I know we'll be hearing more on this" which I took to mean more callers after the music/news but clearly that was it. Perhaps they just don't want the public to speak in case they say something "wrong" so that was as much as they were prepared to air.