Hi Apple
I became GC through trying to convince my mum to be more trans-inclusive and modern. :) It was a brilliant example of how these sort of discussions are supposed to work.
You should try to have a bit more empathy for your daughters. If they're teenagers the T has been a part of the LGB for their entire lives. The whole world has told them over and over that this is right and good and normal. They have accepted it with every breath since the time they believed in Santa Claus, whether you were aware of it or not.
As teenagers there's so much pressure to conform, but also to try to find their own way, their own opinions and values.They're trying to figure out what they believe independently of you, like a baby giraffe standing up for the first time, and you're taking a huge dump on that effort and telling them they're wrong. Are you really confused about why they're upset? You really should be able to respect that they are trying to figure out what's right and wrong, and doing that in the context of a society that subtly and gently reinforces gender ideology in a thousand tiny ways. At least praise the effort they're making to understand their own position and resist just believing what they're told by a person of authority (i.e. you). It will serve them well.
From my experience as the daughter in this discussion, you have ZERO chance of convincing them unless you give it a fair chance that you yourself will be convinced. LISTEN to what they're saying, I'm sure they're smart kids. They've thought about this too, and come up with a different answer. Maybe they're right and we're all wrong? If so, you wouldn't want to go on believing something that's wrong just for your pride, would you? If you want them to listen to you fairly and give it a chance that you might be right then you have to do the same.
At the start I just assumed my mum was out of touch and stuck in the old bra-burning feminism. Your kids probably think the same about you, so let them convince you. Just admit "Look, I'm old, I've been a feminist for decades, but apparently things are changing and I'm being left behind. I don't want to hurt anyone, least of all my darling girls, but I can't just decide to change my mind and not believe what I think is true, I need someone to show me where I'm wrong or I will have to just go on being wrong". If you don't have an answer for something, admit it "That's a good point, I'm going to have to think about that." My mum and I each conceded several points in the early stages of our discussion. If we didn't then there wouldn't have been any point continuing.
The mere suggestion that a transperson, or someone claiming to be a transperson, could ever have but the purest of intentions makes them cry hot tears.
Yeh, well how would you feel if someone said lesbians are all just perverted narcissists that's why they can only love people who look like themselves, and avoid any relationship where they might have to take care of a dependent? You'd be pretty upset, especially if you have close friends who are lesbians and you kind of wouldn't know where to start disagreeing with such obviously bigotted nonsense. You would be pretty disgusted with the person who said that. And remember that for teenagers every emotion is turned up to 11.
I'm just saying that's probably not the best starting point for the conversation. Assuming that the group whose rights you're discussing are being malicious is not a great - that's how you become a Trump supporter.
I think we all have a tenancy to argue from the position where WE are at, instead of the position where the person we're talking to is at. You can talk all day about how bad it is to have Transwomen in sport but if the person you're talking to still considers transwomen to be a type of woman then it's not going to work. You might as well be saying that tall women shouldn't be allowed in women's sports. You have to go back down to the foundation and build up from there.
The key point that got me was that it's just sexism. The whole lot of gender ideology is straight, plain sexism. It doesn't even have any mixers.
Classic sexism says that if you have a female body you should feel 'girly' and do 'girly' things and want 'girly' stuff. If you're female, you should wear dresses, like pink, play with dolls, be emotional, and want to be a housewife.
Genderism says that if you feel 'girly' then you should have a female body, or have your body counted as female. If you wear dresses, like pink, play with dolls, be emotional, and want to be a housewife, then you're "really a girl on the inside".
It's exactly the same sexism, just going in the opposite direction.
This is upheld by every narrative I've ever seen by people who transition and why they think they're the opposite sex. If we accept that "there's no such thing as a girls toy - toy's are just toy's" then how can we accept "i always knew i was a girl because I only ever liked girls toys"?
Yes, people might be uncomfortable with their bodies, and (as adults) might want to modify them and should have the right to. There could be a small percentage of people who literally got the wrong body map. In the same way we can get phantom limb syndrome because our brains map no longer matches our physical bodies and it's deeply uncomfortable, maybe trans people experience a version of that?
But then why don't we see someone like Bruce Jenner change his physical body, and go on calling himself Bruce, wearing what he always wore, and doing his hair the way he always did? Why does feminizing body modification ALWAYS seem to go hand-in-hand with getting a 'girly' name and wearing your hair in 'feminine' ways and wearing 'feminine clothes? We know it's not to do with the feminized body because there are women who drive trucks and go by "Al" (short for Alice) and wear flannels and have short hair. I don't believe it's a social pressure thing where they can't properly express themselves until after surgery, men aren't shamed for having long hair in our society and they aren't shamed for wearing eyeliner (goths, Prince). It seems like on some level they themselves have drawn a link between a female body and sexist stereotypes, and think you can't have one without the other. Which is incorrect and sexist.
Whether they first had body dysphoria, and then felt they needed to take on the behaviors that 'match' it, or first had that personality and then felt they needed a physical body to 'match' is, either way it reinforces the exact same connection between personality and body sex that feminists try to break down because it hurts women and girls. Sure, there could be a few people where it's coincidental that they had body dysphoria and just happened to get surgery at the same time as they realized they like to wear frilly dresses and long hair, but they would be so rare we would never hear about them.
Whatever gender is, it isn't sex. Even if you accept that (for example) Bruce got the wrong body map, AND you accept that there's such a thing as a 'girly' personality and he's got that too, he's still a man. His sex is male, always and forever. And that's fine! I'm not saying that 'invalidates' his 'gender identity' I'm saying it remains true regardless. I can have red hair or brown hair but my eye color doesn't change. It's a different characteristic. So why do people say 'transwomen are women' when we know gender and sex are different? Why are they trying to use female (sex) change rooms based on their gender? They, of all people, know that gender isn't sex, but then sometimes they act like it is the same thing.
I'm not saying these are the points you should bring up. I'm saying these are examples of foundation level arguments. You need to figure out for yourself what the bottom level of your arguments are, or what the first thing was that made you doubt. Then you need to engage with integrity and honesty, allowing that you might be wrong in this. Listing a bunch of things a nobody on the internet said isn't convincing anyone, neither is showing them this thread. It would be hugely disrespectful IMO to just show them this threat. You would be saying "I value the opinions of these strangers more than yours, and I've already decided you have nothing to say that's worth listening to."
And if they don't want to talk about it, don't talk about it. Don't force it on them, let them do it when they're ready for it and in the right frame of mind.