Women actors

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I'm trying to get this thought straight in my head so bear with me.

Hollywood and acting particularly is full of very young, very pretty female actors. Male actors can be older, ugly, fat, weird looking. But women all need to be beautiful and fragrant.

We are sold this as what the market wants. But after Weinstein, it has occurred to me that it seems more likely that good female actors are passed up because male directors and casting staff only want to sexually harass and assault beautiful young women.

Is the casting couch the reason we don't see character actors who are female in the same light as male? Is it the reason that 55 yo male actors have 20 yo female 'wives' on screen? Is it the reason that unless you are incredibly famous your career dies after 30? Do we have a paucity of great female actors because of sexual assault and harassment? It takes time to become a great actor and it seems that women are neither given the roles nor the time.

[BitterLittlePoster]

You'd have to pay me to watch anything Batman related. I haven't seen Wonder Woman but I will watch it when it's on TV.

[noblegiraffe]

Re TV being better than film, MTV did The Shannara Chronicles based on the fantasy books by Terry Brooks written in the late 70s, early 80s.
The first book he wrote was the Sword of Shannara, but the book they based the first series on was The Elfstones of Shannara, which was the second book. I read this in an interview with Terry Brooks:
"If you want to know why we chose Elfstones, rather than the first book, it’s because I got some flack in the first one because there were no female characters. The demographic that the video world is looking for is a mix of male and female characters. And the second story has strong female characters, and it has a good, unorthodox love story involved. And those are all elements that they want."

Which I thought was encouraging.

(The reason the first book has no female characters is because it's heavily ripped off Lord of the Rings, which is just awful for female characters).

[MrsTerryPratchett]

a profit of 671 million (Wonder Woman) is more than a profit of 622 million (batman v superman). And it stands to make more because, let's face it, I'll watch WW twice but I'm hella not watching BvsS twice. I'm quite sorry I watched it once.

[BitterLittlePoster]

And user dude, a profit of 671 million (Wonder Woman) is more than a profit of 622 million (batman v superman).

[BitterLittlePoster]

No to starzig's lazy contribution I meant

[BitterLittlePoster]

No, that's not it.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

In that case why can we see ugly, short, old men? Are men not bothered about how they see themselves?

[starzig]

Is it not that a lot of women want a character they can relate to Maybe? And would rather see themselves as the pretty young thing than the middle aged woman they are.

[BitterLittlePoster]

The point is not which movie made the most. The point is that films starring women actually do make money.

[annandale]

Hack it read one of those careers for girls stories when I was a kid 'Roberta the reporter' or similar, which stated as fact that women could not be newsreaders because their blink rate was too high. Okay then.

[OlennasWimple]

These statistics are interesting.

Most movie goers are younger (so arguably more interested in seeing a younger, female lead as it's already an established trope that older men can be fuckable but not for older women)

Women seem to go to the movies when they take their children (that's my interpretation of the fact that women were the majority at three of the five top grossing films when those include Finding Dory and The Jungle Book)

But an interesting increase in attendance by ethnic minority film goers. I wonder if this will trickle through to increased representation in films?

My film recommendation is The Help - definitely passes the Bechdel test and features lots of amazing older women actors. (Though not good for your white, middle class guilt....)

[MrsTerryPratchett]

This is why I only really watch TV.

That's really interesting. Because DH and I have been raving about all the women and PoC on Netflix. Take Marvel Defenders. Cheesy, superhero nonsense. But it is four people, one of whom has a disability, one is black, one is female. They are complex and interesting. And the white, able-bodied man is the shit one.

[IfNot]

This is why I only really watch TV. Movies are for boys, but TV seems to be where the great female roles are. The film industry is controlled by men. So is TV, but tv scripts are more collaborative, and there are some women in the writers rooms.
Film still operates within the idea of "the Auteur". Scripts that studios and investors want to invest in generally adhere to the themes that men tend to write about. "Women's pictures" are still a secondary concern.
So, fewer written roles for women, hardly any female directors..if there is 1 cardboard cut out girlfriend role, who will they cast? The prettiest girl. I don't think they do it because try are planning to abuse her. Just that give a bunch of men a choice and they will go for fuckability over talent any time.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Wonder Woman was much cheaper than (the awful) B vs S and cost $149 million. It took $821 million so far (that number will increase).

It wasn't perfect but it did have scenes with older women fighting. You never see that. It also objectified Chris Pine. Now I'm not a fan of the 'if you can't beat em join em' school of sexism but it was interesting.

The second part of the film barely passes the Bechdel test and he ends up being the tragi-heroic figure but it was a good start. Except it probably won't be. Because there's a circular argument in Hollywood which is that people want the films there are. Yeah, because if I want to go to the cinema, I have to see what you produce.

[VerticalBlinds]

Those figures are really interesting, Bitter. I think you're right, it's not about the money.

It's about the people who are making the films, and the films they want to make.

Not about the money comes out as well the more research into the pay gap... As in, they say maybe it's because of this that the other, if women did X, then they would get the same.... But actually it's not about the money in terms of the money doesn't distribute itself fairly according to skill etc, it is distributed by people who don't want to give it to women, even if that means costs to their business in terms of losing skilled staff / less profit.

Stuff like this just shows the world up as a big boys playground doesn't it, and when we try to play we are sometimes allowed but grudgingly, and never really accepted.

[hackmum]

deckoff: "'I'd have thought it was more what they thought their audience wanted - and that the general audience they're targeting don't respond well to strong female characters."

They might think that, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support it.

When I was young (1970s), you used to hear all sorts of shit, such as "The reason there are no female newsreaders is because nobody likes listening to women's voices, as they're too high-pitched" or "Even women don't like seeing women doctors". And so on, multiplied by 100.

[MichelGarnier]

God that's depressing Bitter. Didn't someone post on here saying Hidden Figures beat Ben Affleck's Batman film on opening weekend?

I've just looked up the overall figures - and HF took $233 million at the box office (it had a $25 million budget). Will we see another film with 3 black female leads anytime soon? I'm not holding my breath...

Batman v superman took $873m, which is a lot more but it did have a $250/300m budget, so not actually that good a return.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

It’s the same reason that the highest grossing actor (e.g. Jennifer Lawrence) wasn’t the highest paid actor Dwayne Johnson last year).

[BitterLittlePoster]

I'm with you, Mrs. P.

Recently I made my DD watch Outrageous Fortune with Bette Midler and Shelley Long. It's described as a female "buddy movie". I saw it years ago and loved it. It's not a feminist movie and it's not perfect but the leads are women and I thought it was really fun and entertaining. DD loved it too.

So I was thinking about that and I wondered how much money it made. About 52 million US$. In 1987. A few years later The Shawshank Redemption, which is quite the sausage fest and everybody's heard of it, haven't they? (in the US, at least) made 28 million.

9 to 5 with Lily Tomlin, Dolly Parton and Jane Fonda as the leads made 103 million in 1980. (!)

So my conclusion with this little bit of research is as I suspected, it's not about the money.

[MrsSpenserGregson]

Yes MrsTerry! Although i like to think that it's Jason's reward too, as Melissa is so fab

[MrsSpenserGregson]

They were indeed, but not when they first started working together. They met on a film set when she was 19 and he was 44 (and he was married to someone else at the time). Lovely.

[iklboo]

Humphrey Bogart & Lauren Bacall were married.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

may I recommend Spy as another fun movie I love that film. And what's interesting is that she is 'rewarded' at the end of the film with sex with Jason Statham's character who dislikes her through the film and is utterly gorgeous considered more attractive than her. Messing with sex roles there!

[MrsSpenserGregson]

Totally agree with you MrsTerryPratchettand I've been repulsed by this ever since I realised - WHEN I WAS A CHILD FGS - how vastly different in age, and attractiveness, Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall were

I'm too depressed by recent revelations to say anything intelligent about it though.

In addition to PitchPerfect, may I recommend Spy as another fun movie - if not a rather formulaic one in other ways - that breaks with the older non-hot man / hot young chick stereotype? Melissa McCarthy, Miranda Hart and Alison Janney - yayyy. (I'm still struggling with a tiny part of myself that wonders if MM was cast in the role so the audience could laugh at her rather than sigh along with her at the stereotyping her character endures, but I'm trying to suppress that thought and celebrate the fact that none of the three lead actresses is under 40 or "conventionally" pretty, and therefore all the more wonderful for that ... )