My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

19th Century surgeon deemed "transgender"

75 replies

NoLoveofMine · 25/07/2017 10:19

I've just posted about this in another thread so apologises if this doesn't warrant its own but I'm amazed and enraged in equal measure by this: www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/25/secret-transgender-victorian-surgeon-feted-by-heritage-england

A woman who was forced to pretend to be a man as women were barred from education and professions has been deemed "transgender" now. Never mind that were it not for this oppression of women, she'd never have had to in the first place - she was forced into this pretence due to misogyny. How insulting to her.

OP posts:
Report
stumbledin · 02/06/2020 17:20

In fact you can see what a difference a year makes when you see in 2016 they publised a straightforward review of a straightforward biography of James Barry and the word trans does not appear once!

A Woman Ahead of Her Time review – an exquisite story of scandalous subterfuge www.theguardian.com/books/2016/nov/10/dr-james-barry-a-woman-ahead-of-her-time-review

Report
stumbledin · 02/06/2020 17:18

I think this article from 2017 (not surprising as its the Guardian) was part of the LGBTQI+++++++++ community trying to do what became called "transing the past".

In most cased they were historically inaccurate and were about women wanting the freedom to live and work as an independent person, which women couldn't do.

There was quite a strong push back at each attempt that they did this. And often with sucess. If you remember the stupid plaque they tried to erase Anne Lister as being lesbian.

But a useful reminder of how on just so many fronts the trans community are willing to intervene and try and get a foot hold.

In this instance quite strange as James Barry is relatively well known.

But typical Guardian, not only trying to ingratiate themselves with the trans community, but obviously thinking it will be click bait.

Report
BovaryX · 02/06/2020 15:08

This is one of the reasons Professor Selina Todd was targeted and required bodyguards. Trans activists objected to her historical research. They objected specifically to her conclusion that women in the 19th century disguised themselves as men to pursue careers which were barred to them because of their sex, or because they were lesbians. Not because they were 'trans.' This historical revisionism is incredible to behold. It is profoundly reactionary.

Report
SilverLetters · 02/06/2020 14:51

I think I saw the same ad...so predictable!

Report
FloralBunting · 02/06/2020 12:32

Bumping this because I've just seen an ad on social media for a book about historical women who lived 'as men' so they could live the lives they wanted.

Of the 5 comments underneath, one was a whinging MRA saying that women couldn't change a plug and a couple of replies to it, and two were from TRAs insisting that the book will undoubtedly be misgendering TM and could therefore fuck off.

Just one of those moments when the stars align to display the MRA/TRA basic shared DNA very clearly...

Report
JemimaBerry · 03/11/2017 18:48

That was a very satisfying hour spent on photoshop. But I forgot to change the picture!

Report
JemimaBerry · 03/11/2017 17:06

For your amusement...

Secret transgender Victorian housewife feted by Historic England

Mrs Jemima Berry, who concealed the fact that she was a man throughout lifelong domestic servitude, recognised by Historic England



Mrs Jemima Berry ‘was the most beautiful creature I ever met’, according to Donald the grocer. Photograph: Orwell Publications



She died in 1865 and her gravestone reads simply “Mrs Jemima Berry, beloved home maker”. However, she was one of the most renowned washerwomen in the district, and because she was born Michael Anthony Buckley, she holds an important place in the UK’s transgender history.

The site is being marked by Historic England, which on Tuesday announces a slew of heritage listings and relistings of places which are part of the nation’s LGBTQ story. In total there are two new listings and 14 relistings, announced to mark this week’s 50th anniversary of the Sexual Offences Act, which, albeit partially, decriminalised homosexuality.

The heritage minister, Jennifer Valley, said it was “vital that we remember all the communities that have shaped our past. I am delighted that we are recognising the significant contribution made by these outstanding people and protecting the places where they lived and worked for future generations.”

The listings shine a light on fascinating stories and people, not least Berry, who hoodwinked the rag-and-bone man and the grocery establishment by masquerading as a woman and rising to the top of her vocation.

Because men were privileged access to formal education and most professions, she had no way of fulfilling her dreams of unpaid servitude without the pretence. Berry married soon after fulfilling her domestic obligations to her own family. In 1826, she carried out a successful weekly meal plan for eight people on just tuppence – an operation not thought possible before then.

Berry, a satisfactory seamstress and bread maker, was considered something of a deep-voiced eccentric, who even acquired a reputation as a “gentleman-pleaser”. She was also sweet-natured and delicate, with Donald the butcher among those who won her affection. Donald was evidently captivated by Berry and wrote in his stock records: “After she was dead, I was told that [Berry] was a man … I should say that [Berry] was the most beautiful creature I ever met.”



Berry continued in domestic drudgery and died in 1865. A charwoman who washed her body discovered the sensational truth. Berry’s grave in Kensal Green cemetery, London, was of course never listed, but has been listed now with the connections to LGBTQ history included.

The two new heritage listings are a Devon coastal retreat shared by the 20th-century artists Judith Ackland and Mary Stella Edwards, who made a life together after meeting as students, and a chapel in Saunton, Devon, which contains a stained glass window created by the artist and suffragette Mary Lowndes, who lived in London with her partner, Barbara Forbes.

The relistings include the homes of 20th-century artists and writers such as Vita Sackville-West, Hannah Gluckstein and Lytton Strachey.

Derek Walters, Historic England’s listing team leader for the west, said LGBTQ stories had sometimes fallen through a gap. “That’s why we want to uncover and share the untold stories of these buildings and places. They have a rightful place in our nation’s history. Anybody who wants to should be able to get a glimpse into the lives of the remarkable people who lived, worked in and visited them – to understand their achievements and the challenges they faced decades and even centuries ago.”

The listings are part of Historic England’s Pride of Place project, which is also seeking help from members of the public.



• The headline on this article was changed on 25 July 2017 because the original incorrectly named Historic England “Heritage England”. This has been corrected.

19th Century surgeon deemed "transgender"
Report
PoochSmooch · 27/07/2017 18:40

Very pithy, another.

I will give the contents of my pension to anyone who can explain how that isn't Misogyny 101.

Also demonstrated by a compare and contrast on when offences are committed by trans men and trans women.

A trans man is "Woman posed as man to obtain sex by deception!"

A trans woman is "Woman accused of rape" (thought that's not possible under English law) or "Woman on the run after absconding from jail sentence for rape" (but she "may be dressed as a man" - no clue that actually this danger to the public is a completely non-passing trans woman who may very well be presenting as entirely male - people's risk of being raped is less important than misgendering a trans woman of course).

Report
IndominusRex · 27/07/2017 17:58

Washington post now doing the same thing - 'trans' fighters in US civil war. Grrr.

Report
AnotherConcernedCitizen · 27/07/2017 17:53

Moved to comment (finally) as this Transcult is going too far. Just seen on the Guardian twitter thread about this very article a very salient comment. Can't do cut and pasting yet but the comment was basically something like Trans is taking away women's achievements - passing them off as mens and then dumping men's shitty behaviour on us so...
Men get Berry, Joan of Arc etc.
Women get Donna Perry (serial killer of women)

the trans narrative in a nutshell

Report
PoochSmooch · 27/07/2017 09:10

If it can be denied and re-written now, imagine how much easier it would have been then

That's such a sad thought. Did the twit who wrote that article even stop to think about what he was doing in any kind of context?

Report
Datun · 27/07/2017 07:56

It does make you think how many other women have been written out of history, at the time.

I know people (feminists) have gone back in time and highlighted the achievement of women, but how many more just fell by the wayside.

The assistants, the wives and mothers, etc. Those who worked alongside their husbands late into the night poring over research, etc.

He picks up the gong, she picks up the washing.

The women who couldn't get published, couldn't get funding, couldn't get recognition. Whose achievements were minimised, overlooked, or stolen.

It's happening, right now, in retrospect. When there is such a body of evidence to the contrary.

If it can be denied and re-written now, imagine how much easier it would have been then.

Men are petrified of women, aren't they?

Report
PoochSmooch · 27/07/2017 06:42

My jaw is on the FLOOR. Fucking hell!

This madness and rewriting of history has to stop. The story of Margaret/James Barry is about how women have historically been denied access to education and freedom. It has the absolute square root of fuck all to do with gender identity or trans issues.

I've just been listening to the audio book of A History of Britain in 21 Women by Jeni Murray (which I highly recommend by the way) and one of the women she looks at is Elizabeth Garrett Anderson, who fought so long and so hard against such bitter, spiteful, petty opposition to get her medical degree. When I heard about what she had to go through at the hands of the establishment and her peers, it moved me to tears. I couldn't have done what she did and borne what she had borne. If you make James Barry trans, then what you are basically doing is fudging the reasons why she did what she did, obscuring the reality of what women had to go through to get where we are today and imposing a modern sensibility on somewhere that it has no place.

If nothing else, it's piss poor history - one of the first things you need to try to do if you're writing about history is to try to understand how people who lived at the time saw the events you're writing about!

Oh, I am fuming about this. Fuming.

Report
cuirderussie · 27/07/2017 02:05

And yes, she was Irish, also not mentioned.

Report
TheCraicDealer · 25/07/2017 23:03

I read about her in an article when The Spectator reviewed a recent book. She sounded like an incredible woman, all the more so as her family (at least her DMum) knew about the scheme and it was mostly done so she could take over her Uncle's (?) mantle as a highly esteemed doctor. You know, so they could eat.

I think it does a real disservice to women throughout the ages who were so sidelined and pigeonholed and discriminated against that this pantomime was literally their only option in some cases. They were real people who had to make very hard choices in order to survive, not political footballs.

There was a recent case in Africa that was on the BBC news magazine were a woman pretended to be a man so she could work in the gem mines after a divorce left her on the bones of her arse. After many years of hard, physical labour she "came out" and now operates a very successful and lucrative gemstone brokerage, as a woman. Is she trans? Tell me, how is that different?

Report
Elendon · 25/07/2017 22:55

There is some suggestion that her becoming he was not her/his idea in the first place but was foisted on her out of necessity.

Because a woman couldn't possibly have the intelligence and drive to do what she did.

Fuck that shit. I can't even begin to imagine how intelligent women coped in those times when they were not allowed an education.

Report
Elendon · 25/07/2017 22:48

Are they saying James Barry was English? Did she transnationality at the same time?

Report
OlennasWimple · 25/07/2017 22:47

FFS - re-writing history is one of the marks of a totalitarian regime....

Report
Elendon · 25/07/2017 22:46

What next? Boudicca?

Report
Elendon · 25/07/2017 22:38

I used to be goalkeeper for my brothers and their friends when they played football.

Report
Elendon · 25/07/2017 22:37

When I was taught at secondary school in the 70s, (some of my teachers were nuns) we were often told about women in the past who had no option but to pretend to be a man in order to be recognised for the talents they had, including James Barry. It was a way of getting us to be grateful for having the education we were getting.

It makes me angry that a woman who had no option but to masquerade as a man in order to fulfil her desires is now considered transgender.

Should I wear trousers to work anymore?

Report
Writersblock2 · 25/07/2017 22:28

noeffingidea

It's madness. When I was a kid I didn't really fit female stereotype at all: I insisted on wearing trousers, I hated pink, I didn't have much time for "girly" things. Makes me wonder if that was now then would I be encouraged to be trans? Probably so! It was bad enough to feel defective then - by at least it was tolerated even though it wasn't encouraged. Now it would be a trip to the GP and puberty blockers.

Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

regrouted · 25/07/2017 22:16

I've complained to the Guardian for inaccuracy and would encourage others to do the same. This nonsense is just being accepted without question. Adding this historical narrative will be seen to be legitimising the nonsense idea that any person going against their sex stereotype is transgender - god, without any exploration of the historical cultural context.

It's fine to have an article discussing the complexities of historiographical research into Dr Barry, but defining her as transgender is female erasure. The fucking sources they cite describe HER role in the history of women in medicine and that she had to masquerade as a man in order to live out her medical ambitions denied to her sex.

Report
EvilTwins · 25/07/2017 22:01

Archer also George Elliot. Famous male author.

Report
EvilTwins · 25/07/2017 22:00

I watched a play about Dr Barry years ago (Whistling Psyche by Sebastian Barry) There is some suggestion that her becoming he was not her/his idea in the first place but was foisted on her out of necessity.

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.